Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???)

[Talisman]

No: HPFGUIDX 78192

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsmgleaner" <jsmgleaner at y...> 
agreed with Abigail who wrote: 

> I think the fact that so many people jumped the conclusion of 
> rape in Umbridge's case - despite very little hard evidence in the 
> matter - is emblematic of the same kind of perception[using sex as 
a weapon against women]. 

Talisman, who must be getting the truncated version wonders:
What posts were you reading? "So many people jumped to the 
conclusion?"  In my world OoP came out June 21, 2003 and it is now 
August 20, 2003.  When I jump to a conclusion, I'm usually quicker 
than that.  

Actually it seems that it was Abigail who immediately saw rape in 
this scene: 
>"Oh, thank God! I thought I was really twisted, but   the very 
>first reaction I had to the centaurs pursuing Umbridge was that 
>they were going to rape her. And then I felt really, really bad. 
>Still do, in fact."

In fact, feeling so badly, she goes on to scold everyone else, 
including disparaging readers _of her own invention_ "who delight in 
the assumption that [Umbridge] was raped, because the stuck-up bitch 
deserved it."  

Frankly I didn't see the "rape" possibility until I read the posts 
this afternoon.  Moreover, in all the posts I read, the writers seem 
more horrified than delighted at the prospect that JKR would use 
rape as a punishment.  (And, where is that "stuck-up" business 
coming from?) 

Leaving possible subconscious motivations (of author or readers) 
aside, I don't think Umbridge was raped.  I think JKR is brave 
enough to tackle any subject, but it does seem out of character for 
the centaurs.  As many have pointed out, they abhor any contact with 
humans, and with their reverence for foals, certainly wouldn't want 
to risk mating with one. An ugly idiotic one at that.  

That is why I wrote what is obviously an irreverent reply, 
expressing concern for the traumatized centaurs.  If you have to 
spank someone, you can spank me for being irreverent.

  (There is also the fact that, until Grawp saved them, the centaurs 
were considering having Harry and Hermione pay "the same 
consequences" as Umbridge.  (757) "They can join the woman!" <roars 
of approval.>   You see, the scene just gets ugly to the point it 
really cannot be maintained.)

jsmgleaner goes on to say:
Whether or not Umbridge was raped, there is a sense in which JKR 
puts her readers in the position of desiring revenge, particularly 
physical revenge against a woman. 

Talisman notes: Justice versus Revenge. Lex Talionis? Specific or 
general deterrence?  Jurisprudential distinctions without, in my 
studied opinion, a difference.  Time to bust another myth we live 
by. And there are plenty of guys we want to get, too.


Jsmgleaner continues:
My point is that JKR uses Umbridge to place her readers in the 
position of acting like Barty Crouch, Sr., throwing important 
ethical boundaries out the window in order to fight evil on 
its own terms. Just as Crouch allows aurors to use the illegal 
curses and throws suspects into prison without trial (Sirius), 
readers are suddenly forced to confront their own reactions to an 
ostensibly bad character who has done wrong but is taken down for 
it, but not within a justice system.

Talisman rebuts:
You've got the wrong end of it here.  
Crouch was working within the wizard justice system.  And, I hate to 
tell you this, but Crouchian justice is going on at this very 
minute, in the real world, for the same reasons, and under the guise 
of legitimate systems.

JKR is always blasting sacred ideological fallacies.  And, if you 
look a little closer, you'll see that she is not arguing for the 
supremacy of the entrenched legal system over natural justice. 
Crouch, Sr. is a very good example of justice systems gone wrong.  
So is Umbridge. (Nor is she arguing for vigilantism as shown, e.g., 
in the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA.  Look for a more dialectical 
meditation á la Melville's "Billy Budd.")   

Rather, Crouch is to the greater wizarding community as Umbridge is 
to the students.  In the extended analogy, the centaurs are to 
Umbridge what Crouch, Jr. is to Crouch, Sr.  Both are classic 
examples of the poetic justice that evil calls down upon itself by 
its own actions.

 Umbridge's "punishment," whatever it was, was actually meted out 
within a justice system, albeit a rather intolerant one.  "Our ways 
are not yours, nor are our laws." (Magorian to Hagrid, 698)  

Nonetheless, JKR clearly shows us that it is Umbridge's unabated 
persecution of the D.A. and blind bigotry--reiterated as she stomps 
off to the forest, and continued to the point of hurling insults, 
threats and spells at the centaurs (with the Classical Greek hubris 
that signals impending judgment) that triggers her fall.     

 Unfortunately, most of us think the cosmic scales fell a little 
short.  Hence the clamor for Azkaban, etc.

I personally expected Umbridge to be stomped into toad jelly.  I was 
quite disappointed to see her toddling out on Dumbledore's arm.   On 
the other hand, I don't want her to "get more" in Book 6 or 7, 
because I'm hoping never to hear of her again.     

jsmgleaner goes on to say:
I think it . . . looks forward to Harry and others realizing that 
people who are on the bad side don't always know they are (or know 
they are helping it), which will make the ethics of the last two 
books more mature. I hope. . .jsmgleaner, who is fascinated by the 
Umbridge character, and not just because of her visceral reaction as 
a teacher

Talisman, handing out an aromatic cup of coffee, responds:
A moral landscape in infinite shades of gray has been on exhibit 
since Book One.   

Talisman --who is not fascinated by Umbridge, and though an 
attorney, has no "visceral" problems facing the warts of justice.