Centaurs/Umbridge (was various threads re: Umbridge)

[Matt]

No: HPFGUIDX 78286

Well, it appears that I didn't remember as 
much as I thought I did about the centaurs 
of Greek mythology!  Let me just tie back 
down a couple of points about JKR's centaurs:

--- AAm wrote:
> Matt wrote :
> > > Conversely, an assault would contradict 
> > > much of what we have heard about the 
> > > centaurs' moral principles.
> >
> What have we really learned about their 
> moral principles ? Besides, are those 
> principles conscientiously applied ? From 
> what I've already read I must say that I 
> can't really judge.

We've learned that the ethics of the Forbidden 
Forest centaurs revolve around passivity.
They observe, they experience, they predict,
but they do not interfere with the course of
human events.  They are not interested in 
preventing Quirrell/Voldemort from hunting
down and killing unicorns even when it occurs
in their own backyard.  I concede that we have 
learned most of this from Firenze (the others 
barely ever speak, except to warn folks out of 
the Forest).  But Firenze is consistently 
portrayed as representing the views of his 
people in this regard at least.  (Indeed, is
that not supposed to be the reason DD hired
him?)

> > > It would be an act of abuse, inconsistent 
> > > with the Centaurs' rejection of evil (and 
> > > good).  It would be a supreme act of 
> > > interference with the affairs of humans.
> 
> Well, in fact, I had the impression that from 
> the centaurs' POV the interference was H, H and 
> Umbridge's fault. . . .
> Thus, it appeared to me that the [centaurs] 
> were so enraged that the problem "to interfer 
> or not to interfer with the affairs of humans" 
> had somehow already been solved. 

I made two points, and you have addresed the second.
I think your response largely comes back to your
earlier premise that the centaurs do not
consistently apply any particular moral framework 
(with a gloss that they would be particularly
unlikely to do so when fired up).  I disagree with
the premise: when JKR has the centaurs say (I am
paraphrasing) "our laws are not your laws," I think
she means us to understand that the centaurs are
creatures of principle, even if the principles they
apply are different.

I agree that the centaurs were angry and out of
control, but (and this gets back to my first point,
which you did not address) as I read them they
were moved by a desire to assert control over their 
domain, not to abuse or torment Umbridge personally.

> > > It would treat Umbridge as a means rather than 
> > > an end, just what the centaurs blamed Hermione 
> > > for doing to them.
> 
> I'm sorry but IMHO their behaviour had nothing to 
> do with some kind of kantian ethics (if this is 
> what you were referring to, of course ; otherwise, 
> please don't take in account that remark). On the 
> contrary, they did what they did out of pride, 
> resentment, anger, etc., not because they were 
> following any peculiar form of ethics.
> 

I was alluding to a Kantian principle in discussing 
treating people as a means vs. an end.  This was not
to assert that the centaurs are political liberalists, 
just that they were looking for this particular type
of respect.  Perhaps they would demand this respect
from humans without being willing to give it in 
return, but again (and we may differ here) I think
they are too principled to sink to that level of
hypocrisy.

Turning to a different post, Tamee wrote:

> I believe that what sent Umbridge into such a 
> catatonic state is that SHE believed [the centaurs]
> would do that and worse. After all, she calls them
> "filthy half-breeds" as well as "uncontrolled 
> animals", and as she's being hauled off she's 
> wandless and without defense, and knowing that in 
> her position she'd be indulging in her own brand of 
> cruelty, she expects them to behave in whatever 
> bestial way she can imagine. 

I find this reading much more credible than the 
readings that infer an actual sexual assault.  It is
consistent with Umbridge's character, and also with
JKR's portrayal of interspecies ignorance and 
prejudice in the WW in general (e.g., most of the 
wizarding public always assuming the worst about 
werewolves, giants, goblins, etc.).