Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster)

[maria_kirilenko]

No: HPFGUIDX 78473

Hee. I remember spending lots of time on Lupin posts this winter. Why 
is this a topic I just can't seem to leave alone? <g>

Anyway. Some responses, mainly to Ev vy's post.

Ev vy wrote:

> Frankly, I disagree with the opinion 
> that anything that Lupin did 
> was done out of cowardice. 

<looks around uncertainly> Did I miss something? Has someone actually 
said so?

> I think that what motivated him (and 
> still does) is his self-preservation and 
> also a very strong sense of 
> pragmatism. 

I may be misunderstanding you, but I think you're saying that Lupin 
did not intervene during Snivellus-bullying because he knew that if 
he tried to stop James and Sirius, he'd lose their friendship (and 
possibly risk having his secret revealed) – which was *exactly* the 
case, IMO. And you're calling it self-preservation and pragmatism.

I suppose one can call it that, but to me, these two terms 
(especially "pragmatism") imply the presence of a thought-out 
position. Namely, that Lupin carefully evaluated the possible 
repercussions of him defending Snape, and came to the conclusion that 
he *would* lose WPP's friendship. But I find this theory implausible, 
mainly because it seems to me that neither James nor Sirius would 
pass up an opportunity to frolic in the Forbidden Forest with a 
werewolf during full moon, and Pragmatic!Lupin would certainly have 
known that.

No, there is a definite element of cowardice in Lupin's inability to 
stand up to his friends in Pensieve Scene II. 

> He's very well aware of his shortcomings, i.e. 
> irresponsibility, sheer stupidity, inaction. 

I assume you're talking about Adult!Lupin's evaluation of Teenager!
Lupin's behavior in Pensieve Scene II? Well then, let's look at this:

"Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the 
guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?" (Careers Advice, 
OOP)

Then, yes, he's aware of his shortcomings. And, if his word choice is 
anything to go by, he calls them "cowardice."

(As an aside, I have to take issue with the "sheer stupidity" claim. 
Lupin's sheer stupidity made itself known in that he participated in 
the Full Moon Romps, but we're not discussing those right now – are 
we?)

But, as for this:

> And he's also well 
> aware that given his knowledge as an adult, 
> he would have reacted differently.

In the same situation, certainly. But his cowardice still makes 
itself known – or at least, in POA. As Marina said,

> Well, it was the adult Remus who kept 
> quiet about Sirius' Animagus
> abilities and knowledge of the secret 
> tunnels into Hogwarts because 
> he was unwilling to lose Dumbledore's 
> regard by revealing his youthful indiscretions.

Ev vy continued:
> Is he a coward? I don't think so. Neither in PoA, nor in OotP Lupin 
> struck me as a coward.

I know that "coward" is a very harsh word. But I'm having trouble 
coming up with a milder synonym. 

You see, cowardice exists in different forms. Here I'll quote Marina 
again, as she's ever so much more eloquent than I am:

> I think the saving grace for Remus is that he's an emotional coward 
> rather than a physical one. We never see him cringing away from 
> pain or danger, or backing down from his enemies. It's his friends 
> he gives in to.

Ev vy again:
> But I wouldn't say he was afraid to 
> act. Think of Ron. Ron doesn't act 
> against his brothers, although he 
> has the authority. Would you call 
> him a coward? I wouldn't. 

Well, I would. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this 
point, although I have a nagging suspicion that out disagreement is 
really a disagreement about terminology, not facts. 

> I think both Lupin and Ron share a very 
> strong sense of loyalty. Lupin is 
> very loyal to his friends, so he simply 
> won't go against them. As 
> Ron won't go against his family.

Ron's reaction to Hermione urging him to take control of the Weasley 
Wizard Wheezes situation IMO quite unambiguously shows that he is, in 
fact, afraid to curb the twins' actions. The fact that Ron's dilemma 
so obviously parallels Lupin's, coupled with Lupin's own admission of 
his gutlessness in "Career Advice," shows that Lupin is, indeed, 
afraid to exercise his authority over his friends. Oh, Remus made his 
disapproval known to James and Sirius ("you made us feel ashamed of 
ourselves sometimes" – Sirius, Career Advice, OOP), but he never used 
his prefect status to stop them.

But you're right; they both are loyal to their friends and family – I 
just don't think that it's the reason for their actions, or rather, 
inactions.

> Quite the contrary, Lupin exudes 
> authority in both books. He has 
> this quiet, strong manner that allows 
> him to take over the control over 
> the situation.

Quoting Marina's answer to this:
> I suspect that his current ability to keep 
> the people around him in line comes not 
> so much from increased moral 
> authority as from increased facility 
> for judging how far he can afford to go, 
> and which buttons he needs to push. I 
> think the adult Remus is a rather 
> manipulative man, actually. 

Oh, yes. Definitely. And the best phrase to illustrate Marina's words 
would be Lupin's "Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, 
Harry. A poor way to repay them – gambling their sacrifice for a bag 
of magic tricks." (Snape's Grudge, POA)

Ev vy, you might find Elkins's message #35040 interesting. I'll quote 
a bit of it that pertains to our discussion, but you really should 
read the whole thing, you won't regret it.

>>>>>>>
Even Lupin's compassion could, viewed in a certain light, make him 
seem a little suspicious, because it's a compassion born of 
sensitivity and insight, of the ability to "read" others, to deduce 
other people's personal vulnerabilities and motives. Lupin's very 
good at that; it's what makes him a good teacher. But that form of 
sensitivity can also be a rather unnerving trait, particularly in a 
paranoid situation, one in which there are *secrets* that must be 
kept hidden. On a certain level, an emotionally astute individual 
*is* a spy -- he knows your secrets...or at least he makes you feel 
as if he does -- and I don't think that it did much for the others' 
sense of security around Lupin. I think that his very sensitivity 
probably made him seem suspect.

When we're talking about Darkness, also, I think that Lupin's 
sensitivity to others is one of his most suspect character traits 
because while wisely used that sort of sensitivity can lead to 
compassion, used with ill-intent it turns to sadism. If you can tell 
where somebody's vulnerabilities lie, then you may know how to help 
them, but you also really know how to *hurt* them. And while Lupin 
rarely uses his sensitivity cruelly, he certainly does know *how* to 
do it. His rebuke to Harry at the end of Chapter 14 -- "Your parents 
gave their lives to keep you alive..." -- is devestatingly effective. 
It's also slightly...

Well, intent is everything here. Lupin truly believes that murderous 
Black is trying to hunt Harry down, and the kid really *isn't* taking 
the threat as seriously as he ought to be. But if Lupin's comment 
hadn't been delivered with such undeniably good intent, if the 
context had been different, then one might even be tempted to call 
it "vicious." Lupin really does know how to target the jugular, and 
there are times when I get the definite sense that he's got a bit of 
a taste for it as well. He's not a sadist...but he could be, and 
if he ever did go bad, I think that's exactly how he'd do it.
>>>>>>>>>


Ev vy again:
> Yes, start shouting at me, Lupin was a coward. 

Aw, no one's going to shout. We're having a civilized discussion, 
that is all.  

> It's much easier to 
> say 'I was a coward' than to say 
> 'I wanted to see my old friend 
> again' (Lupin very easily accepts 
> Sirius's truth in PoA) or 'I 
> really didn't care about Snape, I 
> cared about my friends'. As I 
> said, Lupin is a pragmatist. Not 
> a coward, but someone who labelled 
> himself as one.

Now, that's interesting. Could you expand on that a bit, with 
canonical support, if possible? I admit that I don't see any hints of 
such dire motives anywhere, but if you do, share them with us.

> Lupin feels the wrongness of his actions, he 
> regrets that Sirius put Snape in danger 
> in the Shrieking Shack, he 
> understand that Snape's hate runs deeply. 
> But I don't think he's 
> repentant of he or his friends did.

Er... Look, I keep getting the feeling that we're talking about 
different things all the time. The Prank and Snape's grudge are, at 
best, tangential to this discussion. What is relevant is Lupin's 
inaction in Pensieve Scene II and his hesitance to inform Dumbledore 
of Sirius's Animagus ability.

But, about this comment:

> But I don't think he's repentant 
> of [what] he or his friends did.

"When he [Harry] had finished, neither Sirius nor Lupin spoke for a 
moment. Then Lupin said quietly, `I wouldn't like you to judge you 
father on what you saw there, Harry...'" (Careers Advice, OOP)

I think that their behavior in that scene shows that neither one of 
them is particularly proud of that brilliant point in their lives.

> Why? One, too many fond memories are 
> connected with that period, and 
> actually admitting that they were 
> wrong would undermine the 
> importance of those memories. 

Yeah, but he *did* admit they were wrong, and not only in that 
episode, but also in the Full Moon Romps part of their Hogwarts 
experience.

> Two, Lupin provokes Snape in PoA. The 
> Boggart incident is nothing else than taunting. 

<snicker> 

Yes, it's just plain taunting. And I love it. 

I'm not an expert on those Snape/Lupin POA interaction theories, but 
they are quite civil to each other most of the time. (Until the 
Shrieking Shack, of course.) In OOP it becomes evident that they have 
quite adjusted to working together within the Order. Lupin's "If 
anyone's going to tell Snape it will be me" phrase supports that.

---------

Of course, Lupin is to be admired for his ability to admit his 
shortcomings, don't you think? 

Also, I can't help but get the feeling that JKR deliberately 
juxtaposes Lupin and Peter:

They both share the quite unpleasant trait of being cowards, although 
in *very* different senses and *very* different situations. And it's 
not their only similarity. If I may quote one of JOdel's excellent 
essays (written pre-OOP),

>>>>>>> 
James pitched in and tried to find a way to help him [Remus] through 
the worst of his difficulties.

Sirius leaped into the project with both feet - chiefly on James's 
account - and because the project was such a *wonderful* challenge. 
(And, besides, having a friend who was an honest-to-ghod Dark 
Creature was just *so cool*.)

Peter took a deep breath, and waded in as well, so as not to be left 
behind.

And Remus was eternally grateful. 
>>>>>>>
(http://www.redhen-publications.com/Padfoot,etc.html)

Am I just seeing things, or is this not accidental? Is this an 
exploration of different types of cowardice and its possible 
repercussions? I am inclined to think that it is. Anyway, I'm really 
interested in what others think about this.

Maria Alena, who can't picture Lupin as Headmaster for some reason