Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry)

[sevenhundredandthirteen]

No: HPFGUIDX 78953

Hopefully I won't be getting too deep into the time travel theories 
this time... :-)

Talisman wrote:

>1) Even if time travel ultimately results in a single, albeit 
>modified, reality, I maintain that you have to be functional to 
>initiate the cycle. 
<snip> 
>A soul-sucked Harry could not initiate the time travel that would 
>create the one, seamless, unsucked reality you envision.

<paraphrase>

>Ergo, either Hermione is going to fail 2/3 of her classes 
>(If choosing to go to Arithmancy modified the earlier choice 
>to go to Divination, there would be no benefit to the time 
>turner.), or, if someone else didn't save Harry, you've 
>always got a soul-sucked Harry experience to deal with.

I (Laurasia) respond:

Not necessarily. 

Your premise that we are always stuck with a soul-sucked Harry unless 
someone else saves him relies on one thing- that there has to be 
a `first time' that time occurs in which no-one has gone back in 
time. That is- because you believe that Time happens multiple times 
and that Time-Turner!Harry is only present in the second existence, 
therefore it follows that someone else *had* to have saved him in 
order for him to live to go back... This is a great theory- except 
that Time doesn't have to function multiple times. Instead of 
thinking about Time occurring many times over, think about time only 
ever happening once.

You don't have to be stuck with a soul-sucked Harry. Harry can save 
himself, can't he??? I agree that soul-sucked Harry can't turn over 
the time-turner and go back in time to un-soul-suck himself. However, 
if there is no `first time' for time, (that is- time occurs only 
once) then there is no need for `Harry to be saved the first time to 
go back and save himself the second time' because there is no second 
time...

To help you understand what I'm saying here are three different takes 
on the Time-Travel sequence in PoA. I'm just trying to show that *it 
is* possible for Harry to save himself so that there is no need 
for "someone else" (eg Snape) to save him.


Time-Travel Theory #1:

When you turn over the time-turner you `rewind' time back to a 
certain point and then relive those hours, except there are two 
version of you in it. 

In this version of time-travel there becomes a `loop.' That is to say-
 every time Harry and Hermione get to the hospital wing they go back 
3 hours in time to eventually arrive back at the hospital wing to 
hear themselves going back in time... and then *this* H+H go back in 
time where it all gets repeated... In this kind of reality there is 
definitely a `first time' in which there was no-one who had gone back 
in time. For this kind of time-travel to work in PoA someone else 
needs to have saved Harry- as, like you said, he needs to be alive to 
go back in time for the second and all consecutive times. This thread 
originally was suggesting Snape. There are other theories which 
suggest Lupin, James Potter, Dumbledore... etc.

Time Travel Theory #2:

When you turn over the time-tuner you get transported into a parallel 
dimension where that time has not yet occurred. There are two version 
of yourself in this version of reality and each dimension acts 
independently of each other- that is, what you do in one doesn't 
affect what happens in the other.

In this version of time-travel there becomes a `step.' That is to say-
 every time Harry and Hermione get to the hospital wing they go to 
another dimension where the 3 preceding hours have not yet happened. 
They eventually arrive back in the hospital wing to hear the parallel 
dimension versions of themselves being transported to another 
dimension where the preceding 3 hours have yet to happen... and then 
*this* H+H go to another parallel dimension when it all gets repeated-
-- except not on the same time-axis, but on an infinite number all 
running parallel to one another (hence the step) etc etc etc. In this 
kind of reality there is also a `first time' in which there was no-
one who had gone back in time. For this kind of Time-travel to work 
in PoA someone else needs to have saved Harry- as, as above, he needs 
to be alive to go back in time the second and all consecutive times.

Time-Travel Theory #3:

When you turn over the time-turner you get transported back in time. 
Time has not moved backwards, rather *you* have been transported 
through it. Time occurs only once; it's only people that can 
experience it more than once.

In this version of time-travel there is no loop or step- time 
occurred only once in a continuous and straight line. That is to say- 
Harry and Hermione are in the hospital wing only once. They 
*actually* *go* *back* *in* *time* to 3 hours previously. They 
eventually arrive back in the hospital wing for the _only_ time to 
hear the people they used to be 3 hours ago leaving to go back in 
time. This H+H have, naturally, have already gone back in time- 
they're standing right there outside the door waiting to come back 
inside. In this kind of reality there in *NO* `first time' in which 
no-one went back in time. There was only *ONE* time. For this kind of 
time-travel to work in PoA there is *NO* *NEED* for someone else to 
save Harry except himself.

So, you see, there need not necessarily have been a `first time.' 
Therefore, it is entirely possible that Harry really did save 
himself. Okay, so I wasn't trying to discount your theory- you are 
still free to accept that there is a `first time' time-travel thing 
happening. I was just trying to show that it isn't the only plausible 
theory. IMO I think it's a *more* plausible theory, however, I've 
been sucked into this debate one too many times
 :-D

~<(Laurasia)>~