Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship")

[pengolodh_sc]

No: HPFGUIDX 86353

--- In HPforGrownups, Carol wrote:
[snip]
> I think you're right. IIRC, the signers of the Magna Carta were
> referred to as barons. So if the Bloody Baron is British, he
> would have to date from the Norman era or earlier. I'm not aware
> of any British barons in the fifteenth century; they were all
> dukes, earls, and lords (perhaps technically barons but not
> referred to as such).

No.

1.  You will not find Barons in any part of Britain prior to the 
Norman invasion - it is a rank of nobility introduced to the British 
isles by the Normans.

2.  There have, since the norman invasion, always been barons in 
Britain.  Baron (Baroness) is a specific rank in the British 
nobility.  Duke (Duchess) is another, different specific rank in the 
British nobility, and a Duke (Duchess) is not a Baron unless he (she) 
happens to hold a separate title as Baron.  The same is the case for 
Marquess (Marchioness), Earl (Countess), and Viscount (Viscountess).

3.  There were plenty of Barons in Britain in the 15th century, just 
as there were in the 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 
20th centuries (and possibly the 11th - but the Norman invasion took 
place relatively late in that century), and just as there are in this 
century.  While commonly all Barons, Viscounts, Earls, and Marquesses 
are referred to as Lord as a courtesy, that is because they are 
members of the House of Lords, and it does not mean they are Barons, 
Viscounts, Earls or Marquesses any less.  Moreover it is quite common 
in the case of hereditary titles to include just what the person is, 
even when using the style of Lord - as such the present Lord Newton, 
Richard Thomas Legh, is the 5th Baron Newton, and head of the Legh-
family (as an aside, in larger noble families, it is not atypical 
that there is more than one branch which is in possession of some 
title or other - thus the head of the Campbells is, AFAIK, the Duke 
of Argyll (who I believe also holds 13 other titles covering the 
whole range from Baron to Duke), but another Campbell is the Earl of 
Cawdor, and there are other titled Campbell-branches as well).

4.  If the Bloody Baron was anything more than a Baron (i.e. a 
viscount, an Earl, a Marquess, or a Duke, all of which rank higher 
than Baron), he would have been referred to as such - after all, 
embodying the Slytherin ideal, as one would expect the house ghost of 
Slytherin to do, he would want to be as exalted as possible.  If he 
had been anything less than a Baron (e.g. a Baronet or a manorial 
lord), he would in all likelihood have been called on it by one 
nearly headless Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, who would be 
sensitive about anyone getting an inch more than they should - 
witness his bitterness about not being allowed in the Headless Hunt 
because of his nearly-headlessness.

> Now if we knew the Bloody Baron's name or had heard him speak,
> a guess at his nationality would be easier. I still think that
> if he were British, he would be styled as a lord, not a baron.
> He also strikes me as having a kind of Gothic/Durmstrang air
> about him, appropriate to the ghost of Slytherin, whereas Sir
> Nick is what Elizabeth I would call "pure English" and
> undoubtedly graduated from Hogwarts.

It can be argued that Queen Mary I of England, daughter of Henry VIII 
and nicknamed Bloody Mary, was as English as they come, without 
seeming to have overly much in common with Nearly Headless Nick's 
mannerisms.

Moreover, presuming that the Bloody Baron went to Durmstrang would 
then require an explanation of how he came to Hogwarts as a ghost, 
and - at least as importantly - how he came to be accepted as the 
Slytherin House Ghost at Hogwarts.  The "old Boys"-system of Hogwarts 
is likely to be very strong, particularly among ghosts, and I find it 
hard to believe that they at all would allow an outsider to become 
the head ghost of Slytherin - particularly Slytherin, which seems to 
be the least accomodating of all the four Hogwarts houses.

Best regards
Christian Stubø