Titled characters (WAS Voldemort's "lordship")

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 86379

> --- In HPforGrownups, Carol wrote:
> [snip]
> > I think you're right. IIRC, the signers of the Magna Carta were
> > referred to as barons. So if the Bloody Baron is British, he
> > would have to date from the Norman era or earlier. I'm not aware
> > of any British barons in the fifteenth century; they were all
> > dukes, earls, and lords (perhaps technically barons but not
> > referred to as such).
> 
Christian Stubø wrote: 
> 1.  You will not find Barons in any part of Britain prior to the 
> Norman invasion - it is a rank of nobility introduced to the British 
> isles by the Normans.

Carol:
Oops. I do know that. I should have said the Norman era, including the
early Plantagenets to about the thirteenth century. I don't know how
"or earlier" slipped in there. I know that there weren't any Saxon
barons (only "earls" and "carls"--noblemen and commoners). So 1066 to
about 1300 is what I had in mind.

I referred specifically the barons of King John, who signed the Magna
Carta in 1215, as evidence that the term "baron" was in common use in
England in that era--as it was not in the fifteenth century to my
knowledge. Neither the Yorkist nor the Lancastrian kings referred to
their followers (or their enemies) as barons. 

To return to King John (himself was a descendant of William the
Conqueror and pretty much a Norman), here's a translation of the first
paragraph of the Magna Carta, which shows that yes, indeed, there were
barons in England in 1215:

JOHN, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of
Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou, to his archbishops,
bishops, abbots, earls, *barons,* justices, foresters, sheriffs,
stewards, servants, and to all his officials and loyal subjects, Greeting.

I actually think we agree on this point, but all you saw was my little
slip ("or earlier") and not my main point, which was about the Magna
Carta. (Well, Carol, you should try proofreading your posts!)


Christian Stubø wrote: 
<snip>
> 4.  If the Bloody Baron was anything more than a Baron (i.e. a 
> viscount, an Earl, a Marquess, or a Duke, all of which rank higher 
> than Baron), he would have been referred to as such - after all, 
> embodying the Slytherin ideal, as one would expect the house ghost of 
> Slytherin to do, he would want to be as exalted as possible.


Carol:
This point I wholeheartedly agree with. But I still think that IF he's
an English baron, he dates from about the eleventh through thirteenth
centuries, not later. As I said, the English nobility of the fifteenth
century did not to my knowledge refer to themselves or one another
using that term.


Christian Stubø wrote: 
> Moreover, presuming that the Bloody Baron went to Durmstrang would 
> then require an explanation of how he came to Hogwarts as a ghost, 
> and - at least as importantly - how he came to be accepted as the 
> Slytherin House Ghost at Hogwarts.  The "old Boys"-system of Hogwarts 
> is likely to be very strong, particularly among ghosts, and I find it 
> hard to believe that they at all would allow an outsider to become 
> the head ghost of Slytherin - particularly Slytherin, which seems to 
> be the least accomodating of all the four Hogwarts houses.

Carol:
I don't see why the "old Boys" system should be particularly strong
among ghosts, though I admit they're finicky about whom they admit to
the Headless Huntsmen Club. :-) As for Slytherin being the least
accomodating house, if he meets their standards for pure blood,
ambition, and cunning, I don't see why they wouldn't admit him and in
fact welcome him whether or not he attended Hogwarts as a Slytherin. I
don't see any other Slytherin ghosts, for one thing. For another, he
seems to be quite a strong character, able to control even Peeves, so
strength of will and a touch of ruthlessness may have something to do
with it. There is, of course, the question of how he ended up at
Hogwarts if he's "foreign," which I concede is a bit tricky to explain.

OTOH, if he's English, it would work out quite nicely for him to be
from King John's era or slightly before, maybe the extremely bloody
civil war between Stephen of Blois and Matilda (Maud the Empress),
1135-54. Since Hogwarts was founded in the late eleventh century, he
could well have been a Slytherin. Not that the Normans wer in the
habit of sending their children to boarding school, particularly in
Scotland, but maybe they were ahead of their time. (Hogwarts, I
assume, looked like a Norman keep and not a medieval castle at the time.)

Carol, who is wondering why she's taking this topic so seriously.

P.S. Christian, for both our sakes, I hope the Bloody Baron gets some
dialogue in Book 6 or 7!