Chapter Discussions: Chapter 8, The Hearing

[linda_mccabe]

No: HPFGUIDX 87487

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote:
> Chapter 8: The Hearing
Snips to portions that I wish to respond to:
 
> Harry realizes that he only knows two of the people there: 
Cornelius Fudge and Percy Weasley.  When Harry looks at Percy, Percy 
does not acknowledge his existence, this enforces Percy's 
estrangement from his family.

Athena:

Eh, I have a different take on this.  I think that Percy is ignoring 
any personal relationship with Harry because he wants desperately to 
succeed.  His career success will be in pleasing the Minister of 
Magic and he will sacrifice anyone to do so.  That day it just 
happened to be Harry Potter.  He would no sooner have smiled at 
Harry and tried to reassure him that all was going to work out for 
the best than he would have contradicted Minister Fudge as to how 
best to deal with the rumors that Voldemort had risen.

No, Harry was on trial and the Minister wanted him fried.  Percy was 
firmly in the Minister's camp because he felt that if he supports 
the Minister unquestioningly than he will be helping the future and 
security of the Wizarding World.

Percy's big problem is that he doesn't realize that Fudge is a 
Voldemort sympathizer and puppet.  So when Percy is helping Fudge, 
he's actually helping Voldemort.

 
(snip) 
> Dumbledore comes to testify for Harry.  Although Dumbledore is 
there, he does not look at Harry or acknowledge his existence.  Most 
of the members of the Wizengamot look upset to see Dumbledore there, 
but two witches in the back row wave to him.  Fudge is surprised to 
see Dumbledore because Fudge did not think Dumbledore was aware of 
the change in time and venue.  

Athena:  This in and of itself signals to me that Fudge is Evil.  I 
truly believe that the change in time and venue done without 
adequate notice was done to try and overwhelm Harry within the legal 
system and make it so that it would be impossible for him to get a 
fair trial.  Without Dumbledore being there, I doubt that Harry 
would have been acquitted.  Not with only his testimony which would 
have been interupted repeatedly and cut off by Fudge when it might 
turn to something that could be embarrassing for the Ministry.

(snip)
> 
> Harry finally tells the Wizengamot that there were Dementors in 
Little Whinging.  Fudge tries to laugh it off, and he tells the 
Wizengamot that he thought Harry would make up a story like that.  
Harry tries to make them believe his story.
> 
> Dumbledore interrupts and says that Harry has the right to present 
a defense.  Madam Bones backs him up.  

(snip)

Athena:

And this is where I feel we see how things would have gone horribly 
if it had only been up to Harry to defend himself.  He wouldn't have 
had that witness present and it would have simply have been his word 
against what Fudge said.  That the dementors are firmly under the 
control of the Ministry, therefore none of them would have been 
there that night.  Fudge's word against a child who had been made 
out to be a lunatic in the wizarding press, (thanks I'm sure to 
Fudge's pressure on The Daily Prophet.)


> Fudge is suspicious of her because they have no record of any 
other wizards in that area.  

Athena:  Does anyone else think the line about records of witches 
and wizards in Little Whinging had been closely monitored "given 
past events" is a bit suspicious?  In the first chapter of the first 
book there were owls swooping overhead and past the Dursley's front 
window.  This makes me think that there may have been some witches 
or wizards that were next door neighbors or lived close to the 
Dursleys prior to Harry coming to live with them.  I wonder what 
that prior event was and how the magical people were then forcibly 
removed from the neighborhood.


(snip) 
Dumbledore mentions Clause Seven of the Decree, which says that 
magic can be used in life threatening situations.  Fudge says that 
he still doubts Dementors where there, and he says that he wants 
this trial over with as soon as possible.  Dumbledore slyly accuses 
Fudge of wanting to expell Harry to make himself look good. 

(snip)

Athena:
Dumbledore also brings up that Fudge tried to overstep his authority 
by attempting to not only expel Harry, but to confiscate  (he forgot 
to mention destroy) Harry's wand.  This I think clearly points to 
Fudge working hand in glove with Voldemort.  Getting Harry to be 
outside the protective confines of Hogwarts and be without 
his "brother wand" would be making the poor lad totally 
defenseless.  Well, as defenseless as he was when he was a mere 
toddler and wandless and possessing no real magical ability.  ;-)

Trying to quickly expel Harry and destroy his wand, break wand now - 
ask questions later - seems to be running roughshod over any form of 
due process that would be present in the wizarding world justice 
system.  I know, many of you are choking in your coffee at the mere 
mention of due process and justice in the Potterverse, but remember 
Buckbeak's case took alllll year looong.  Given that as a counter 
example of the current legal system, it should seem that Harry would 
be allowed a hearing and an appeal before his wand was destroyed.


 
> Questions (in no particular order):
> 
> 1.  Was it really pure luck that Dumbledore happened to arrive at 
the Ministry early enough to make the trial, or was he notified by 
someone?

He may have been tipped off, but I am sure that he was there as soon 
as the Ministry doors opened in the morning, expecting this kind of 
shenanigans.  As it was, Harry wasn't even properly notified even 
though it seems that Fudge knew that Arthur Weasley was going to 
bring him to the hearing.  Another strike against Fudge.
> 
> 2.  Does Dumbledore help or hurt Harry's case by throwing 
accusations at the Ministry?

He helps of course. The question of why Fudge is so hellbent on 
destroying the future of this young child has got to be weighing 
heavily on the minds of those in attendance.  They also know 
Dumbledore for many decades and it is hard to erase all the good 
feelings towards such a man with a few weeks of bad and twisted 
headlines.  Especially if you know the rag in question has made the 
Ministry itself look bad in order to sell copy.  (Mayhem at the 
Ministry, post QWC anyone?)
> 
> 3.  Is there only one dungeon used for trials?  Are all trials for 
adults held there?  Does that make the scheduling of such trials 
hard since there is only one governing body?  Would it be better for 
justice if the Wizengamot was split into smaller groups?

I think because it was moved to that old courtroom that it is 
obvious that there are other venues for legal proceedings.  Old 
Courtroom 10.  That implies that there are at least nine other 
courtrooms and it it probably the site of the most notorious ones.  
And they hadn't been used in years, which was alarming for Arthur 
Weasley.  To me that signifies that Fudge really wanted to put the 
screws to Harry and make it as damning as possible.

It doesn't seem like the full body has really been called in a long 
time, so scheduling convenience shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> 4.  Does this scene support EvilGit!Percy?  He does not even 
acknowledge that Harry is in the room, or that he knows Harry.  Or 
does this support SpyfortheOrder!Percy?

To me Percy is just lusting for personal advancement and is blind to 
anything else.  Same as his later scene in Dumbledore's office where 
Percy played Fudge's laugh track.  The nose on Percy must be covered 
with a nice layer of brown frosting.

Nah, to me FIE, but Percy is very ambitious and incredibly naive.
> 
> 5.  Is Percy's attendance at the trial a part of Evil!Fudge's plot 
to further separate Percy from his family and friends?

I don't think it furthered that plot necessarily, but was the first 
time that we as readers got to see how Percy had sided with his 
ambitions rather than his loyalty to his family.  I do with that Jo 
had found a way to show the argument between Percy and his parents 
and how he turned his back on them, rather than having us be told 
about it afterwards when it was fait accompli.
> 
> 6.  Was it entirely legal for Professor Lupin to teach Harry the 
Patronus Charm?  In the Ministry's eyes, I mean.

I don't know that it was illegal.  I think they were terribly 
surprised that a thirteen year old was powerful enough to be able to 
conjure one.  I think that it is NEWT level magic and they were 
surprised that a fifteen year old (let alone a thirteen year old) 
could be able to perform that bit of magic.  Probably many of them 
can't even do it themselves.  
> 
> 7.  How exactly does one become a member of the Wizengamot?
> 

It's not what you know or how much you know, it's who you know.  ;-)

> 8.  Do they have to buy those robes themselves? :-D

Nah, put it on the Ministry's tab.
> 
> 9.  How long did Dumbledore feel Lord Voldemort could sense the 
connection between himself and Harry?  Dumbeldore does not look 
at/talk to Harry in this scene.

I think with the look of triumph in Dumbledore's face at the end of 
GoF.  Otherwise, Dumbledore had not communicated with Harry and he 
really didn't seem to get much intelligence from others as to how 
Harry was feeling.  It may have been from Snape's reports but 
somehow, I wonder...
> 
> 10.  Will this make Harry an anarchist of sorts?  Like on Buffy 
when Buffy said, They're in England.  They can't tell which way my 
back is facing.”  Will Harry turn his back on the Fudge-run 
Ministry?

Oh, I wouldn't trust Fudge as far as I could throw him.  The ending 
of OotP did not show that Fudge was good but simply incompetent.  I 
think with the Ministry being wide open for all the Death Eaters, 
Voldemort, Dumbledore, Sirius Black and a passel load of school kids 
to just waltz inside without any security stopping them - that it 
signals that there was some complicity going on.  And personally, I 
think all it took was Lucius jangling some more gold in the 
direction of Cornelius and saying, "leave it all unlocked tonight 
and tell everyone to take the night off - no questions asked."  
Otherwise, why would the most wanted wizards, (Sirius, Dumbledore, 
Voldemort and the other escaped Azkaban prisoners) be able to enter 
that establishment?

Nah, Fudge is evil.  Don't trust that governmental body until the 
Aegean stables are cleaned.




Athena 

(I haven't been back here in so long, but saw some questions to 
answer and hope that my thoughts aren't terribly pedestrian 
rehashes.)