[HPforGrownups] Reason versus Emotion

[Amanda Geist]

No: HPFGUIDX 51408

Jade rambled:

> After I posted so brazenly that I did not like Harry, I sat back and
> watched as the *inevitable* in defense of Harry posts came up. Each
> person took the different adjectives that I had described Harry with
> and came up disputed them, sometimes with canon example, IIRC.

Okay, I'd like to hear (a) what else you expected and (b) why this is bad
(especially the canon example part, that's *great*).

> It got me to thinking about this board and reason versus emotion. Now
> please note, I am not a debater. I do not like debating. Debates seem
> to me to be highly thought out intellectual "arguments", in which
> someone always gets hurt. I do appreciate this the spirit of this
> board, though, the well-crafted theories and expostulations and
> thoughts I have read here have been nothing short of amazing (Elkins
> and Jasmin come to mind).

Debates *are* highly thought out intellectual arguments. However, people
getting hurt is not inevitable. People get hurt when one of two things
happens:

(a) the person making the argument takes a criticism of their *argument* as
a criticism of *them* as a person;
(b) the responder really does criticize the person and not their argument.

Both of these involve a failure to recognize or respect the distance between
a person and the argument the person is making. As an example:

Poster A: I think Snape is a vampire
Poster B: I think that theory is totally ludicrous because there's not
really any canon support and besides, *some* of the characters have to be
human, we're running out, Hagrid's half-giant and Lupin's a werewolf...

This is perfectly acceptable. This is debate. Poster A should not feel
attacked, even though their point has been challenged. But...

Poster A: I think Snape is a vampire
Poster B: I think anyone who thinks that is a total blithering idiot and
should not appear in public unaccompanied.

This is argument, but is not debate (at least not well done), and it is in
this second case where feelings get hurt. Justly so. And on this list,
generally, this Poster B would be Howlered or water ballooned. (It is not
broadcast to the list when this occurs, by the way, so the rest of the list
is often not aware of it, but the efforts of the Mods and elves to keep the
tone polite are continuous.)

> But I am an emotional being, and how I view things is from that
> filter, generally. I do not like Harry. It is not an arguable
> subject. Nothing anyone says is going to make me say: "Aha! They are
> right, and Harry is not a nosey, self-centered, spoiled little git!"
> It is not possible, because it is an EMOTION, which can not be
> reasoned with. I just do not like him, and that is that.

Well, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But you did post a
stance to a *discussion group* and it got discussed. What did you *think*
we'd do?

Also--please don't confuse a topic being discussed with us trying to convert
you. Most of us would be delighted if our charming but stubbornly unswayable
discussion partners would suddenly see the light and admit we were right.
[Like there's no *way* Snape is anything but human.] But they don't, and
they won't, and I'm not trying to make them. I'm just arguing my side real
loud, because it's what I think, and I'm an emotional being myself.

> But I
> noticed that folks tried to use REASON to argue their points, and (I
> may be extrapolating here) to convince me otherwise.

Reason is a good way to construct an argument. On this list, it's usually
used to build an infrastructure beneath a castle based on intuition (for
example, I'll have a particular "take" on Snape and cast around to find
canon to support it). Emotion has a strong place, but so too does reason.
Reason is where we try to shore it up.

> My point? Hmmm, do not know if I have one (I *told* you I was not
> good at debating), except to say that I firmly believe that all of us
> are here for the *emotional* impact HP has brought to us, and though
> we love to use our reason to theorize and discuss JKR's wonderful
> IMAGINARY world. A world in which the NOT REAL characters do not need
> defense as they are well, NOT REAL. But the people reading about and
> forming feelings about these characters ARE real, and that is what we
> need to keep in mind above all when we are *reasoning* with each
> other on our *emotions* about IMAGINARY people.

You preach to the choir. We know all this. The world JKR has created does
not exist, just as Tolkien's, Lewis', deLint's, etc., do not. But her world
is incredibly well-constructed, populated with vivid characters we
recognize, interacting in situations we can identify with, and denying this
list the use of reason to dissect and discuss that world is unfair and
unreasonable.

An incredible infrastructure of guidelines and administrators has evolved on
this list, because the people who formed it loved to discuss JKR's
creations. They did not love flame wars, insults, or divisiveness. The
debates you find here are detailed, intricate, engrossing, etc. -- but not
rude. If personal attacks or hurt feelings happen, they are attended to.

That said--no moderator or elf anywhere can protect someone from being
oversensitive. If you know that you are, please take your own steps to
protect yourself. There are 5700+ members of this list now; and there are
reasonable rules to protect an atmosphere that reasonable people can debate
in. If you know from the outset that your sensitivity will not allow you to
move in this atmosphere unhurt, well, then, you knew that from the outset.

> So. Do not know if that had a point, felt like more of a ramble, but
> I ask that anyone who does respond be kind to me, a VERY REAL
> emotional person.

Speaking for myself, I tend to respond to statements and only incidentally
notice who said them; I remember what was said, not who said it (generally).
I don't keep a "kid glove" list of members for special handling. So I ask in
turn that you keep in mind that I'm bad with names and not react too
strongly to my posts.

It can be a wonderful list. I hope you can enjoy it.

~Amandageist