Objections to Magic Dishwasher - Shrieking Shack

Wed Feb 5 19:59:53 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 51681

Well, over the past few days, I've been reading up on Pip's posts:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 

and 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044

as well as Grey Wolf's excellent and comprehensive summary:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39854 

and as many objections and defenses as I could stomach.  There... 
are... so... many... ;-)  All of these serve as the premise for the 
Magic Dishwasher theory and just have to say: "Well done, Pip and 
MDDT's!" I *love* the idea that this is a terrorist war. I *love* the 
idea that they're using information against each other. Brilliant!

But, I have some objections and questions of my own that I haven't 
noticed in the archives, and then a conclusion at the end of the post.

Pip wrote in 39662
"Snape (and Dumbledore) know about Pettigrew being the secret 
keeper."

I reply:
Yes, it is tricky. Granted (and nice memory, there) Hagrid *was* in 
Azkaban, and therefore *could* have heard the imprisoned Death Eaters 
rambling and wailing. Okay. That I can buy.

Pip wrote in 39662:
"Snape and Dumbledore already know Peter Pettigrew is Scabbers the 
Rat."
And
"What canon tells us is what Sirius and Remus *think* about 
Dumbledore's knowledge - not what Dumbledore actually does know."

I reply:
No way:

1) "An extraordinary achievement – not least, keeping it quiet from 
me. And then I remembered the *most unusual form* your Patronus 
took. . ."
(PoA, US softcover, Owl Post Again, 428 – emphasis is my own) 

This is at the end of the book, in one of the `Dumbledore tells all - 
confessional' scenes (they occur in every book.) Two things about 
this quote: he says quite clearly that he didn't know. He also says 
that Harry's Patronus was "unusual." If he'd known about Prongs, he 
wouldn't have thought it was unusual at all. There is NO indication 
in canon that Dumbledore has lied at any point in any of 
these 'confessional' scenes. Every time he either a) answers 
truthfully (as far as he knows) or else b) he refuses point blank to 
answer. 

2) "Sirius. . . if you could resume your usual form."
The great black dog looked up at Dumbledore, then, in an instant, 
turned back into a man. 
<snip Mrs. Weasley's screaming>
Snape had not yelled or jumped backward, but the look on his face was 
one of mingled fury and horror.
"Him!" he snarled, staring at Sirius, whose face showed equal 
dislike. "What is he doing here?" (GoF, US Hardcover, Parting of the 
Ways, pg. 712)

Several observations:
1) Animagi are rare. If Snape knew that Sirius was an animagus (as 
39662 presumes he did), he would not have been surprised to learn 
that the black dog was Sirius.

2) Since he didn't know that the black dog was Sirius in GoF, we must 
conclude with two things:
  a. He didn't know in the Shrieking Shack.
  b. Dumbledore DIDN'T tell his loyal lieutenant later on.

Pip wrote in 39662:
As discussed above, Dumbledore very unusually *doesn't* let Harry 
tell his side of the story. His explanation to Harry is one of his 
favourite 'telling only part of the truth' explanations:

There is no proof for Black's story except your word; Your word isn't 
good enough.
There is lots of eye-witness evidence against Black. I gave evidence 
myself.
Lupin is currently unavailable. Besides, no one will believe a 
werewolf.
Professor Snape has already given a much more believable version of 
events.

And as the final crushing blow:
Without Pettigrew there is no chance of overturning Sirius's sentence.
END QUOTE.

I reply:
This is not unusual. I believe that you're staring the obvious in the 
face here... these reasons are, if anything, extremely real and 
believable. 

And remember: Sirius is about to be executed. Some canon:

"The dementors should have arrived by now." 
(US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 391)

"It is your turn to listen, and I beg you not to interrupt me, 
because there is very little time," 
(US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 392)

"But I have no power to make other men see the truth, or to overrule 
the Minister of Magic. . . " 
(US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 393)

"What we need," said Dumbledore slowly, and his light blue eyes moved 
from Harry to Hermione, "is more time."
(US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 393)

"The kiss will be performed immediately?"
"As soon as Macnair returns with the Dementors."
(US softcover, PoA, Owl Post Again, pg. 416)

Once Harry and Hermione have returned from their adventure with the 
Time Turner, Harry has time to eat four pieces of chocolate before 
Snape and Fudge realize Sirius is gone and storm down to the hospital 
wing.

Reading anything into this scene is entirely not necessary. The facts 
are there right in front of us. Dumbledore can't let Harry and 
Hermione talk – indeed, he gives them only minimal time to tell *him* 
the truth, nevermind tell Snape and Fudge and answer questions and so 
forth. Dumbledore has spoken with Sirius and believes him to be 
innocent. There's not enough time to let them talk, AND let them save 
Sirius. And he has no authority to overrule the Minister of Magic. 
And once Sirius is executed, the temporary advantage they have via 
Time Turner will be nullified.

Pip wrote in 39662:
"Snape was not supposed to admit that he knows the words 'Pettigrew' 
and 'rat' are connected."

I reply:
Oh, I disagree – maybe that they're not supposed to be connected, but 
the kids DO mention the rat, several times, and even Pettigrew, 
and "Ron's rat."

NO, the person they're avoiding mention of is LUPIN. Notice how he's 
not mentioned by anyone, anywhere in that scene? Why not? Why doesn't 
Snape mention Lupin? Why does he say that the kids are confounded?

Because Snape *IS* loyal. And Dumbledore trusts Lupin. See Chapter 
Nine, Grim Defeat, for the conversation between Severus and 
Dumbledore. Snape begrudgingly respects that. Look:

"That was because you were knocked out, Professor!" said Hermione 
earnestly. "You didn't arrive in time to hear –"
(US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 390)

Hear what?
Hear Professor Lupin explain that he led the Marauders into becoming 
animagi...

Pip wrote in 39662:
Dumbledore certainly appears remarkably unconcerned with Pettigrew's 
escape when he talks about it to Harry later (PoA p. 311). In fact, 
he's *pleased*.

I reply:
Yes, I concur. Dumbledore is unconcerned. But by this point, he knows 
everything. He knows that Pettigrew just escaped, and he also knows 
that Pettigrew has a life debt to Harry. Convenient.

Whether or not these were the result of his own machinations is 
irrelevant. He knows, and is pleased, because the life debt is a 
handy coincidence.

In conclusion, I would say that the analysis of this scene is one of 
the difficulties I had with Magic Dishwasher. This may seem 
contradictory, but I don't believe it is. The theory takes this 
premise of a terrorist war (which I still love), and then uses all 
sorts of conjecture to prove that it's true, or at least, that `canon 
doesn't say it's untrue.' 

Which I believe is twistabout logic, still. ;-) Sorry all, I won't be 
convinced that inferences are acceptable unless they have basis in 
canon.

And besides, I wonder why so much stock is set by this analysis, not 
that it's not creative Pip, please don't take me the wrong way here.

I guess I would say that the analysis of the Shrieking Shack is 
*unnecessary* for the theory, and actually makes it IMHO, it makes 
Magic Dishwasher *weaker.* Why does it make it weaker? Because all we 
need is a one-liner to discredit half of MD's foundations:

- Snape: How could we have known when that slime escaped that it'd be 
in our favor after all?
OR
- Dumbledore: An extraordinary achievement – not least, keeping it 
from me.

Oh wait. That last one is in canon.  ;-)

But it doesn't *matter.* Dumbledore can *still* be a spymaster, and 
he can still be working behind the scenes to send misinformtion to 
Lord Voldemort. All of the basics of Magic Dishwasher can remain 
intack without assuming that Dumbledore had any control over events 
in the Shrieking Shack.

-Tom