Objections to Magic Dishwasher - Shrieking Shack

[bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51708

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall <thomasmwall at y...>" 
<thomasmwall at y...> wrote:
> 
> Well, over the past few days, I've been reading up on Pip's posts:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 
> 
> and 
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044
> 
> as well as Grey Wolf's excellent and comprehensive summary:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39854 
> 
> and as many objections and defenses as I could stomach.  There... 
> are... so... many... ;-)  All of these serve as the premise for 
> the Magic Dishwasher theory and just have to say: "Well done, Pip 
> and MDDT's!" I *love* the idea that this is a terrorist war. I 
> *love* the idea that they're using information against each other. 
> Brilliant!
> But, I have some objections and questions of my own that I haven't 
> noticed in the archives, and then a conclusion at the end of the 
post.
> 
<Snip>
> 
> Pip wrote in 39662:
> "Snape and Dumbledore already know Peter Pettigrew is Scabbers the 
> Rat."
> And
> "What canon tells us is what Sirius and Remus *think* about 
> Dumbledore's knowledge - not what Dumbledore actually does know."
> 
> I reply:
> No way:
> 
> 1) "An extraordinary achievement – not least, keeping it quiet 
from 
> me. And then I remembered the *most unusual form* your Patronus 
> took. . ."
> (PoA, US softcover, Owl Post Again, 428 – emphasis is my own) 
> 
> This is at the end of the book, in one of the `Dumbledore tells 
> all -  confessional' scenes (they occur in every book.) Two things 
> about this quote: he says quite clearly that he didn't know. 

No, Tom. He doesn't. He says quite clearly that it was an 
extraordinary achievement keeping it quiet from him. He does not 
say 'even I never knew', for example.

It would have been an extraordinary achievement keeping it quiet 
from Dumbledore if Dumbledore had only worked things out *after* the 
Prank. It would have been an extraordinary achievement keeping it 
quiet from Dumbledore if, after they'd left school, James Potter had 
said 'Now, there were some things you *never* found out'. Remember 
that Dumbledore knew the Potters well enough to offer to be their 
Secret Keeper.

Dumbledore uses 'Prongs' nickname and shows that he knows perfectly 
well what form James took. Then when Harry realises that Dumbledore 
should NOT know that nickname, Dumbledore smilingly explains that 
Sirius told him all about the Marauders becoming animagi. And then 
he remarks that he remembers the form Harry's Patronus took at the 
Quidditch match.

So:
Dumbledore knows James's animagi form and his nickname.
Dumbledore had been told about the animagi forms last night.
Dumbledore had noticed the form of the Patronus. He thought it was 
*unusual*.

Notice that while this appears to be a logical sequence, it doesn't 
have to be. Dumbledore can be completely truthful in his comment 
that Sirius told him about the animagi last night.

All he has to do is (say) not mention that James Potter had also 
told him, several years previously.

> He also says 
> that Harry's Patronus was "unusual." If he'd known about Prongs, 
> he wouldn't have thought it was unusual at all. 

No? How much do you know about Patroni? Is it common for one to take 
the shape of a parent's animagus form? Or is that remarkable, 
*unusual*?


> There is NO indication in canon that Dumbledore has lied at any   
> point in any of these 'confessional' scenes. Every time he either 
> a) answers truthfully (as far as he knows) or else b) he refuses 
> point blank to answer. 
>
 
Well, this is an area where I and the other members of the MDDT 
disagree entirely. [grin] Melody, I know argues that Dumbledore 
never lies. I think he does lie if necessary, and there is one point 
in canon where he is heard lying, but JKR deliberately doesn't 
attribute the lines.

It's in PoA. Ch.22, the point where Snape, Dumbledore and Fudge are 
coming towards the hospital wing door. There are two unattributed 
lines. Both are spoken by someone calling Snape *Severus*. 

OK, proof it isn't. But I have yet to find any other place in the 
books where *Fudge* calls Snape 'Severus'.

Dumbledore, on the other hand, calls Snape 'Severus' all the time.

The 'confession' scene in PS/SS also repays some careful reading. 

Please also remember that you are talking about the same Dumbledore 
who, in the PoA Hospital Scene, canonically says:

"This door has been locked since I left the ward ten minutes ago."
[True]

"Madame Pomfrey, have these student's left their beds?"
[Avoids a direct lie by Dumbledore, by getting Madame Pomfrey to say 
something she thinks is true, but which isn't true].

"Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in 
two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling 
them further."
[An absolutely truthful statement with a double meaning ]

Dumbledore has told the exact, literal truth.

And lied through his teeth.



A final comment on Dumbledore's view on 'truth'.

"The truth. It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should 
therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS UK paperback, Ch. 
17, p.216]

Think about it. [grin]


> 2) "Sirius. . . if you could resume your usual form."
> The great black dog looked up at Dumbledore, then, in an instant, 
> turned back into a man. 
> <snip Mrs. Weasley's screaming>
> Snape had not yelled or jumped backward, but the look on his face 
> was one of mingled fury and horror.
> "Him!" he snarled, staring at Sirius, whose face showed equal 
> dislike. "What is he doing here?" (GoF, US Hardcover, Parting of 
> the  Ways, pg. 712)
> 
> Several observations:
> 1) Animagi are rare. If Snape knew that Sirius was an animagus (as 
> 39662 presumes he did), he would not have been surprised to learn 
> that the black dog was Sirius.

First point. He was not surprised. The description reads 'mingled 
fury and horror'. It does *not* read 'mingled fury and 
surprise'. 'Horror' is not an unlikely reaction when you have just 
found out the person you most dislike has heard your darkest secret.

Snape, in fact gives no sign of surprise whatsoever. He doesn't 
yell, he doesn't jump backwards. "Him! What is he doing here!" can 
be read as 'I didn't realise it *was* him' or 'I didn't realise 
you'd let *him* be here.

Second point: there is *no* 'presumption' that Snape knew Sirius was 
an animagi. He did know. Because he was at the very latest told in 
the Shrieking Shack itself. 

The door opens by itself (signifying Snape's entrance) in PoA Ch. 
18, p.258 UK hardback. Later on in that Chapter, Lupin talks about 
the other three Marauders turning into animagi. He mentions that 
Sirius was a large animal. By the transformation scene in GoF, Snape 
absolutely, canonically *knew* Sirius Black was an animagi.

> 
> 2) Since he didn't know that the black dog was Sirius in GoF, we 
> must conclude with two things:

>   a. He didn't know in the Shrieking Shack.


>   b. Dumbledore DIDN'T tell his loyal lieutenant later on.

As I say above; you haven't proved he didn't know that Sirius was an 
animagi, because canon proves he already knows it.  What Snape 
doesn't know, because he hasn't *seen* it, is Sirius's animagi dog 
shape. Or possibly that the large animal shape *was* a dog.

OK, say he does know it's a big black dog.
Black mastiff?
Black labrador?
Black labrador/Alsatian cross?
Black mongrel (mutt)?

The world is full of big, black, dogs. I cheerfully admit that 
they're not normally found in hospital wings, but it could be the 
Weasley family pet for all Snape, McGonagall and Fudge know. [They 
do tend to make pets of animagi, after all]

Is Snape even really *concentrating* on the dog? Given that he's 
trying so hard to convince Fudge that he bares his arm and Tells All?

> 
> 
> Pip wrote in 39662:
> As discussed above, Dumbledore very unusually *doesn't* let Harry 
> tell his side of the story. His explanation to Harry is one of his 
> favourite 'telling only part of the truth' explanations:
> 
> There is no proof for Black's story except your word; Your word  
> isn't good enough.
> There is lots of eye-witness evidence against Black. I gave 
> evidence myself.
> Lupin is currently unavailable. Besides, no one will believe a 
> werewolf.
> Professor Snape has already given a much more believable version  
>of events.
> 
> And as the final crushing blow:
> Without Pettigrew there is no chance of overturning Sirius's 
sentence.
> END QUOTE.
> 
> I reply:
> This is not unusual. I believe that you're staring the obvious in 
> the face here... these reasons are, if anything, extremely real 
> and believable. 
> 
> And remember: Sirius is about to be executed. Some canon:
> 
> "The dementors should have arrived by now." 
> (US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 391)
> 
> "It is your turn to listen, and I beg you not to interrupt me, 
> because there is very little time," 
> (US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 392)
> 
> "But I have no power to make other men see the truth, or to 
> overrule the Minister of Magic. . . " 
> (US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 393)
> 
> "What we need," said Dumbledore slowly, and his light blue eyes  
> moved from Harry to Hermione, "is more time."
> (US softcover, PoA, Hermione's Secret, pg. 393)
> 
> "The kiss will be performed immediately?"
> "As soon as Macnair returns with the Dementors."
> (US softcover, PoA, Owl Post Again, pg. 416)
> 
> Once Harry and Hermione have returned from their adventure with 
> the Time Turner, Harry has time to eat four pieces of chocolate 
> before Snape and Fudge realize Sirius is gone and storm down to 
> the hospital wing.
> 
> Reading anything into this scene is entirely not necessary. The 
> facts are there right in front of us. Dumbledore can't let Harry 
> and Hermione talk – indeed, he gives them only minimal time to 
> tell *him* the truth, nevermind tell Snape and Fudge and answer 
> questions and so forth. Dumbledore has spoken with Sirius and 
> believes him to be innocent. There's not enough time to let them  
> talk, AND let them saveSirius. And he has no authority to overrule 
> the Minister of Magic. And once Sirius is executed, the temporary 
> advantage they have via Time Turner will be nullified.

Uh, right. The facts were right there in front of me. Sorry about 
that. Gosh, and I thought Dumbledore was rushing things along 
because he wanted to get Black out of the way and Fudge off the 
grounds as fast as possible. Because otherwise, one of the balls he 
was juggling in mid air would fall.

Dumbledore doesn't even try to save Sirius. He lets Snape tell Fudge 
his version of events. In fact, he leaves Snape alone with Fudge. 
However, he doesn't let the kids tell their version.

He makes sure *he's* heard Sirius's version. He doesn't even 
*suggest* to Fudge that he might like to hear what Sirius has to say.

His first words on entering the Hospital Wing?

"My apologies, Poppy, but I need a word with Mr Potter and Miss 
Grainger..." [Ch. 21, p.286]

He hasn't the *slightest* intention of letting them explain things 
to Fudge. Or of letting Fudge talk to Black. Or of even *suggesting* 
that Fudge talks to Black. 

Snape reaches the Castle 45 minutes before Dumbledore locks the 
hospital wing. [p. 301, ch.21] Far from calling the Dementors 
immediately (as he threatened), Snape's priorities seem to be 
getting the kids into hospital and telling Dumbledore. 

We know he doesn't talk to Fudge straight away. The conversation 
with Fudge on the staircase in Ch.21 implies that it is the first 
chance Fudge and Snape have had to talk (Fudge notices Snape's cut, 
for example). Between this and the Time Turner is about 6 pages of 
dialogue (fairly fast moving dialogue). It can't be more than 12 
minutes at the very most; more likely about 6 minutes.

So there are 30 'missing minutes' whilst Harry and Hermione are 
unconscious. 

How long does it *take* a dementor to get from the school gates to 
the castle, anyway? If Fudge had been told of Black's capture as 
soon as Snape got back to the castle shouldn't Sirius have been soul-
sucked by the time Harry woke up? 

Stall, stall, stall...

Another interesting comment [this one from Snape]

...only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties...[Ch.22 
p.305]

Well, if they'd needed more *time*, he might well have done...


> 
> 
> Pip wrote in 39662:
> "Snape was not supposed to admit that he knows the  
> words 'Pettigrew' and 'rat' are connected."
> 
> I reply:
> Oh, I disagree – maybe that they're not supposed to be connected, 
> but the kids DO mention the rat, several times, and even 
> Pettigrew, and "Ron's rat."

Quotes from Ch.21, pp.285,286

Mentions of 'rat' 'Pettigrew' and 'Ron's rat' in front of Fudge [who 
is the only danger].

"Peter Pettigrew faked his own death. We saw him tonight. You can't 
let the Dementor's do that thing to Sirius...

[No problem. This implies that they saw Peter Pettigrew in human 
form. No interruption.]

"It was Ron's rat, he's an Animagus, Pettigrew, I mean,and...
"You see Minister? Confunded, both of them...

[Rat, animagi and Pettigrew mentioned together and Snape interrupts.]

"I suppose he told you the same fairy story he's planted in Potter's 
mind. Something about a rat and Pettigrew being alive..."

****And DUMBLEDORE INTERRUPTS!!!****

Can you see the significance of this? Dumbledore STOPS Snape telling 
a story that Dumbledore KNOWS is true!

And there is a second clue in this statement. If you go to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/15233
you'll find Amanda Lewinski's excellent breakdown of what Snape does 
and does not hear in the Shrieking Shack.

One thing Snape *doesn't* hear?

Pettigrew is alive.

Read it through carefully. From the moment the door creaks and 
invisible Snape enters, to the moment Snape is knocked out, it is 
*never* mentioned that Pettigrew is alive. Oh, there are happy 
stories of the foursome's schooldays, with Lupin wiping away a tear, 
and Sirius asks that the rat be brought up to the castle, but the 
slightly vital facts that Peter Pettigrew is alive and masquerading 
as a rat are never mentioned.

Snape in the Hospital Wing has only just [face value reading] heard 
this story of Pettigrew masquerading as a rat. But he (again) shows 
no sign of surprise, doesn't waste any time whatsoever 
saying 'ridiculous, Pettigrew's been dead for years'. Instead he 
says 'Confunded'. He says 'Peter Pettigrew was not in the Shrieking 
Shack, nor did I see any sign of him in the grounds'. He reacts as 
if he heard this story in the Shack.

Oops.

And then Hermione breaks in with her obvious intent to Explain All, 
and again, it's DUMBLEDORE, not Snape, who gets everyone the heck 
out of the room. Snape by this time is reduced to screaming, and 
things are going more than slightly pear shaped.

So, Dumbledore clearly has no time?

Yup. No time whatsoever. No time to let the kids tell their story. 
No time to mention that his Potions Master appears to have picked up 
the same story from the kids interrupted remarks with amazing speed. 


> 
> NO, the person they're avoiding mention of is LUPIN. Notice how 
> he's not mentioned by anyone, anywhere in that scene? Why not? Why 
> doesn't Snape mention Lupin?

Err, well actually, Tom, it's because he *does*. Earlier in the 
chapter he talks to Fudge about the kids being 'out of bounds, at 
night, consorting with a werewolf and a murderer...'

And what were *you* talking about with the murderer, Mr Werewolf?

[First page of Chapter 21. p. 283 UK hardback.]
<Snip>
> 
> Pip wrote in 39662:
> Dumbledore certainly appears remarkably unconcerned with 
> Pettigrew's escape when he talks about it to Harry later (PoA p.  
>311). In fact, he's *pleased*.
> 
> I reply:
> Yes, I concur. Dumbledore is unconcerned. But by this point, he 
> knows everything. He knows that Pettigrew just escaped, and he 
> also knows that Pettigrew has a life debt to Harry. Convenient.
> 
> Whether or not these were the result of his own machinations is 
> irrelevant. He knows, and is pleased, because the life debt is a 
> handy coincidence.
> 
> 
> In conclusion, I would say that the analysis of this scene is one  
> of the difficulties I had with Magic Dishwasher. This may seem 
> contradictory, but I don't believe it is. The theory takes this 
> premise of a terrorist war (which I still love), and then uses all 
> sorts of conjecture to prove that it's true, or at least, that 
> `canon doesn't say it's untrue.' 
> 
> Which I believe is twistabout logic, still. ;-) Sorry all, I won't 
> be convinced that inferences are acceptable unless they have basis 
> in canon.

Weelll....

OK, Tom, you asked for it when you remarked in post 51378 
that "Magic Dishwasher is very interesting, although I'm not sure 
it's entirely thorough in its reading of the text," [Big, evil 
grin]. 

If you only accept inferences when they're based in canon, then 
might I suggest that you read canon more carefully? For example, you 
didn't notice that in GoF Snape quite definitely knows that Sirius 
Black was an animagi (possibly not that he's a dog), because he was 
told that in PoA. Or that in PoA Snape does mention Lupin to Fudge. 
Just not by name.

> 
> And besides, I wonder why so much stock is set by this analysis, 
> not that it's not creative Pip, please don't take me the wrong way 
here.

Precisely what way would you *like* me to take you? 

> 
> I guess I would say that the analysis of the Shrieking Shack is 
> *unnecessary* for the theory, and actually makes it IMHO, it makes 
> Magic Dishwasher *weaker.* Why does it make it weaker? Because all 
> we need is a one-liner to discredit half of MD's foundations:
> 
> - Snape: How could we have known when that slime escaped that it'd 
> be in our favor after all?
> 
> OR- Dumbledore: An extraordinary achievement – not least, keeping 
> it from me.
> 
> Oh wait. That last one is in canon.  ;-)

And, as I hope I've shown, proves nothing. 

'keeping it from me'?
FOR HOW LONG?

And of course MD can be disproved in Book Five. We had a huge 
argument about that a few months ago. It's a canonical theory, and 
Hurricane Jo can blow it right out of the Safe House.

Or at least require me to do some major appliance repair ;-)


> 
> But it doesn't *matter.* Dumbledore can *still* be a spymaster, 
> and he can still be working behind the scenes to send 
> misinformtion to Lord Voldemort. 

> All of the basics of Magic 
> Dishwasher can remain intack without assuming that Dumbledore had 
> any control over events in the Shrieking Shack.

Uh, yeah, Tom. That's because Dumbledore's and Voldemort's use of 
spies and undercover agents is *canonical*. See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45528

Or did you miss those bits of canon as well? ;-)

Pip!Squeak.

[Ok, Ok, I'll put my claws back in now. ]