MD Alternative: Lupin is the agent. (WAS Objections to Magic Dishwasher - Shriek

[Tom Wall <thomasmwall@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51912


I just wanna throw out first - y'know, Annemehr, your posts really 
make me *think,* I'm telling you. I have to read it, and then let it 
simmer first before attempting to reply. ;-)

Annemehr wrote:
BUT, WAIT! Now I am uncertain...
If Sirius could recognize Peter in 
the Daily Prophet picture, why couldn't 
Lupin have, too? Lupin would have *heard* 
about only Peter's finger being found, 
when Sirius supposedly killed him, and 
besides, they both would have recognized 
him anyway, wouldn't they? So, *was* 
Lupin just pretending to be surprised 
to have seen Peter on the map? I guess
he would need to pretend, for Sirius' 
sake (so that Sirius wouldn't wonder 
why *Lupin* hadn't just killed Peter 
when he had a chance, anytime during 
the school year)! It would also help in 
explaining things step-by-step to Harry.

I reply:
I dunno about you, but my head is *spinning.* ;-)

Well, I don't like it, but we can submit that it's possible that 
almost anything from Lupin in the Shrieking Shack could be an act, 
and much of it would be totally redundant for him, *if* he's a agent 
*and* he needs to get the info out to Harry.  

And although I don't want to think that his reconciliation with 
Sirius was anything but genuine, I could buy into it for the sake of 
filling Harry in fully.  Oh, oh, *AND* he would have to do it anyways 
so that he *could* reconcile with Sirius, whether Lupin knew the 
whole deal or not, right?

So, one way or the other, DP clipping, or Dumbledore, or Hagrid!
Azkaban (get to that in a second) Lupin will have to go through the 
whole thing for Sirius and the kids, even if he *does* know it all 
already.


Annemehr wrote:
That was my point at the end of my last post: just as Lupin fully 
intended to kill Peter along with Sirius after they established the 
fact that Peter was the traitor, Lupin could have fully intended to 
kill Sirius if he thought *Sirius* was the traitor. I agree that it's 
iffy that Harry would have stepped in without Peter, but the whole 
thing was a gamble anyway.

I reply:
Oops! My bad. Y'know, I think that no matter how you look at it, if 
we're talking about MD and there being an agent in the Shrieking 
Shack, the *whole thing* is a total gamble. There is zero guarantee 
that either Snape OR Lupin will walk out with the life-debt.


Annemehr wrote:
Yes, Dumbledore knowing about Peter is a big inference, which MD can 
make using Snape's unwillingness to discuss rats (but no specific 
mechanism for their knowing about Peter that I can recall). Lupin!MD 
can say that Lupin saw the Daily Prophet photo (well, so could MD, I 
guess), and it was Lupin who told Dumbledore about Peter being alive. 
Then Dumbledore's words at the end strongly implying that he never 
knew about the illegal animagi become problematic again, though.

I reply:
Yup, but then we're thrown back into my original "negative readings" 
that involve Lupin's guilt over not telling Dumbledore that Sirius 
Black was an animagus. If we want to think he's twisting the truth 
there, then if he had a good reason, he could have suggested that 
Peter was an animagus without necessarily telling Dumbledore about 
Sirius. Or else, he could be lying about the whole thing to keep 
Peter out of the know that Dumbledore knows, so that Voldemort stays 
out of the know that Dumbledore knows.


Annemehr wrote:
But look who Dumbledore was *with* -- would there have been any time 
for Lupin to get Dumbledore out of the Ministry wizards' earshot and 
discuss strategy? Whoever Dumbledore's intended agent was, I think 
that agent would have had to have been able to go haring after Sirius 
or Peter without having to stop for any discussion, because they'd 
have no advance notice that Harry was going to be running into them.

I reply:
You know, after thinking about this a little bit, I think you're 
right. If Dumbledore's gonna set up a plan and *bother* to have an 
agent, then the agent wouldn't need to fill him in on everything.


Annemehr wrote:
Well, Hagrid finding out in Azkaban seems so unlikely to me -- have 
you read anything supporting it in the MD posts lately? Because I 
don't remember there being any real, canon explanation for this (not 
that that means there isn't any -- can you help me out here?).

I reply:
Not if we accept Sirius's comment about what he heard in Azkaban.

"I heard things in Azkaban, Peter.... They all think you're dead, or 
you'd have to answer to them.... I've heard them screaming all sorts 
of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser 
double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters on your 
information... and Voldemort met his downfall there."
<PoA, US paperback, Ch. 19, 368)

So, if Death Eaters in Azkaban know that Peter was a "double-crosser" 
and that Voldemort "went to the Potters on [Peter's] information." 

That can only mean the secret, right?  I mean, "double-crossing," 
and "information."

So, if Sirius heard it in Azkaban, I'm willing to accept that Hagrid 
might have heard it there too. 


Annemehr wrote:
Or that he's just switching it from Sirius to Peter (which, 
admittedly, has a *much* better chance of working out) -- and no real 
need to speak to Dumbledore, IMO <she says yet again...<g> >

I reply:
Yep, I'll give that one up. One way or the other, the way events 
unfolded, and considering who Dumbledore was with, it would have been 
very difficult for either Snape OR Lupin, to consult with Dumbledore 
before going to the Shack.


Annemehr wrote:
Well, there's always the EvilDoubleAgent!Snape theory that has Snape 
also trying to assure the escape of Peter, because Evil!Snape knew 
all along about Peter being the traitor, even before James and Lily 
were killed. He can't afford for Peter to be captured now and rat him 
out (pun intended).

I reply:
*chuckle* That's true too. If I'm exceptionally bored, I just might 
try to work out how Lupin and Snape could have *both* been 
Dumbledore's agents. As Elkins pointed out in a recent post, it's not 
unusual for Spymaster-types to play agents against each other for a 
greater purpose.

Looks like we're getting somewhere here, covering the weaknesses one 
by one. Any more holes to patch up?  Come on - it's a tempting 
target. ;-) I'm sure there are more holes. Any of the MDDT wanna give 
it a whack?

-Tom