MD Alternative: Lupin is the agent. (WAS Objections to Magic Dishwasher - Shriek

[annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51900

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall <thomasmwall at y...>" 
<thomasmwall at y...> wrote:
 
> Annemehr wrote:
> At some unknown time after testifying that Sirius had been the 
> secret-keeper, Dumbledore may or may not have found out about 
> Pettigrew. Personally, I think he still thought the traitorous 
> secret-keeper was Sirius until the night of the SS scene.
> 
> Tom replied:
> Well, to be honest, my first reading of the whole thing led me to 
> that conclusion as well. 
> 
> But, I'm not sure that we can go that route if we're just discussing 
> a plausible alternative to MD as it stands now. I mean, I'm not 
> trying to totally change the theory – in fact, I think that if we 
did 
> that we'd be essentially creating a *new* theory, which isn't what I 
> was trying to do – I'm just trying to conduct a sort of thought 
> exercise to illustrate (mostly to the MDDT) that the theory can keep 
> all of its premises and still use a different agent.
> 

Annemehr:
My reasoning on that point was that, in Lupin!MD, if Dumbledore knew 
that Peter was really the traitor, he would have had to have told 
Lupin that, if he expected Lupin to be an effective agent.  But, I 
just couldn't read Lupin's surprise in the S. Shack as an act.

BUT, WAIT!  Now I am uncertain...
If Sirius could recognize Peter in the Daily Prophet picture, why 
couldn't Lupin have, too?  Lupin would have *heard* about only Peter's 
finger being found, when Sirius supposedly killed him, and besides, 
they both would have recognized him anyway, wouldn't they?  So, *was* 
Lupin just pretending to be surprised to have seen Peter on the map?  
I guess he would need to pretend, for Sirius' sake (so that Sirius 
wouldn't wonder why *Lupin* hadn't just killed Peter when he had a 
chance, anytime during the school year)!  It would also help in 
explaining things step-by-step to Harry.


>Tom: 
> But, here's where I have to stop and think a minute: Do you think it 
> would be *possible* to get a life debt out of Sirius sans Peter? I 
> really don't think so, since the interplay between those characters 
> is what makes the life-debt happen. In other words, without anyone 
to 
> shift the blame *to,* how could Harry forgive and forget? 

Annemehr:
That was my point at the end of my last post: just as Lupin fully 
intended to kill Peter along with Sirius after they established the 
fact that Peter was the traitor, Lupin could have fully intended to 
kill Sirius if he thought *Sirius* was the traitor. I agree that it's 
iffy that Harry would have stepped in without Peter, but the whole 
thing was a gamble anyway.

> 
> Side not: this takes us WAY off of the premises of MD, because MD 
> assumes from the get-go that somehow they knew Pettigrew was the 
> secret keeper, right?  I'm getting wary of being too far off canon 
> too. Ultimately, I don't want to have to fill in too many voids with 
> inference. IMHO, that makes any theory weaker.
> 
Annemehr:
Yes, Dumbledore knowing about Peter is a big inference, which MD can 
make using Snape's unwillingness to discuss rats (but no specific 
mechanism for their knowing about Peter that I can recall).  Lupin!MD 
can say that Lupin saw the Daily Prophet photo (well, so could MD, I 
guess), and it was Lupin who told Dumbledore about Peter being alive. 
 Then Dumbledore's words at the end strongly implying that he never 
knew about the illegal animagi become problematic again, though.
> 
<snip some speculation that Tom liked>

> Tom replies:
> This is totally in character with the theory. Good analysis here - I 
> really like it. =)
> 
Thank you!
> 
>Tom:<about Lupin and Dumbledore passing each other closely in time 
near the entrance to the castle:>
Although the time convenience is too nice a bit 
> of convenient canon to skip out on... Dumbledore enters, and a few 
> minutes later Lupin's exiting. I think if Lupin was in on the pre-
> planning, then it can fit nicely into everything without causing the 
> original premises to collapse [for Lupin to talk to Dumbledore 
about seeing Peter headed for the SShack].

Annemehr:
But look who Dumbledore was *with* -- would there have been any time 
for Lupin to get Dumbledore out of the Ministry wizards' earshot and 
discuss strategy?  Whoever Dumbledore's intended agent was, I think 
that agent would have had to have been able to go haring after Sirius 
or Peter without having to stop for any discussion, because they'd 
have no advance notice that Harry was going to be running into them.
 
> Tom wrote:
> Well, if we shift the plan for creating a life debt with Sirius, 
> we're totally moving into the realm of theory here. I don't think 
> that there'd be any canon to support it at all.  I like it, but I 
> just don't see any way of getting evidence for it.
> 
> But, if we can accept the MD original idea that perhaps the 
knowledge 
> of the life-debt came from Hagrid's stint in Azkaban, then we don't 
> have to worry about developing the plan for Sirius? You agree?

Annemehr:

Well, Hagrid finding out in Azkaban seems so unlikely to me -- have 
you read anything supporting it in the MD posts lately?  Because I 
don't remember there being any real, canon explanation for this (not 
that that means there isn't any -- can you help me out here?).

But if Dumbledore could know in MD, then I guess he could know in 
Lupin!MD.

Lupin could know in either theory, from the DP photo although: 
1. He doesn't seem to have told Dumbledore, judging by how D only 
found out about the illegal animagi at the very end, if you accept 
what he says about "keeping it secret from me," etc. as true.
2. He pretended to first discover Peter on the Map just before 
following Sirius et al into the Shrieking Shack.

> Tom:
> I also get the impression, one way or the other, that although the 
> life-debt plan might have been one among many possible contingencies 
> that Dumbledore was planning, I just don't see how Snape OR Lupin 
> could have had any advanced preparation for the Shrieking Shack. In 
> other words, even if they were helping Dumbledore to formulate the 
> plan (Snape because he's the Potions master, or Lupin because he's 
> the DADA instructor and the potion is an `old bit of dark magic,' 
> paraphrased from GoF,) I think that we're definitely looking at 
> putting it into action hastily at best.

Yes, I have to agree with that.  It certainly makes both variations 
more believable to me.  Even with MD, I could never accept that this 
whole scene was tightly scripted.  It was when I came to see it as a 
plan that they were willing to take a chance on, no matter how 
unlikely to be successful, simply because the potential benefits would 
be so high, that I began to accept it as a theory. 
> 
> As for them knowing about Pettigrew being the secret-keeper, I think 
> that I'm okay conceding that point to the MDDT, although we don't 
> have to.

You know, I think maybe this is the biggest problem with either of 
these theories...
> 
> If we do then Lupin's just foraging for the correct information from 
> Sirius at the beginning of the Shrieking Shack, and the plan's been 
> in preparation for a while.
> 
> If we don't, then Lupin's actually making a serious determination at 
> the beginning of the Shrieking Shack, and the life-debt plan is sort 
> of a last minute boon. Although in this case, I think it's essential 
> for Lupin to have consulted with Dumbledore briefly.

Or that he's just switching it from Sirius to Peter (which, 
admittedly, has a *much* better chance of working out) -- and no real 
need to speak to Dumbledore, IMO <she says yet again...<g>  >
> 
> There's *some* canon to support the notion that Hagrid could have 
> heard it in Azkaban, if Sirius did, for instance. 


Not really.  Sirius' canon is the Daily Prophet photo, which only was 
published *after* Hagrid had left Azkaban.

 
> 
> Annemehr wrote:
> The other big question is, under this scenario, what the heck is the 
> point of Snape being in the Shrieking Shack at all? Just to conjure 
> the stretchers afterwards, or to give Fudge a false impression of 
> what went on that night?
> 
> Tom replied:
> Well, if we can accept Lupin!MD as I wrote it with a few more 
> clarifications, then I'd say that Snape is just there for the 
revenge 
> reason that would be on the surface in the novel. He legitimately 
> went to Lupin's office with the potion, and then, seeing his old 
> enemy darting along the old secret corridor, he followed. When he 
got 
> there, vengeance possibilties beyond his wildest *dreams* started 
> dancing in his head. And afterward, conjuring the stretchers is just 
> his job as a teacher. The confunded bit is all to blame Sirius 
> further, and then the enraged scene at the end there is all 
> legitimate.
> 
> Although, having just finished reading Marianne's post, I think that 
> it could be argued very well (although, I'm not going to try to do 
> that now
) that *both* were sent there by Dumbledore to provide a 
> very big character lesson for Harry.  That's a really ambitious 
> theory though.
> 

Well, there's always the EvilDoubleAgent!Snape theory that has Snape 
also trying to assure the escape of Peter, because Evil!Snape knew all 
along about Peter being the traitor, even before James and Lily were 
killed.  He can't afford for Peter to be captured now and rat him out 
(pun intended).


> 
> Also, Agent!Sirius, anyone?

YOU think about that one.  I'm going to sleep...

Annemehr