TBAY: Washing dishes and powders

[Shauna <wind3213@hotmail.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51926

You raise some very valid points, but can they be explained if 
Lupin and Snape are *both* agents?

The fact is that spymaster!Dumbledore wants both a minimum 
and a maximum of control.  On the one hand, he wants to make 
sure that his plan works out, and that nothing goes horribly 
wrong.  On the other hand, he needs to give Harry control of the 
situation in order to invoke the life debt.

So, in order to have a maximum of control over the situation, 
Dumbledore plants *two* spies in the situation.  This is 
important, because both Sirius and Peter may be dangerous, 
and if you take HRH out of the equation, you have a 1:1 
agent-to-death-eater ratio.  Yet aside from the very beginning, 
they each take turns controlling the situation.  First, Lupin calms 
everybody down and explains while Snape gets to the SS and 
listens.  Then, Snape ties and shuts Lupin up while he takes 
control of the situation.  When he is knocked out, Lupin is 
released and again regains control.  And when Lupin 
transforms, Snape regains conciousnes.

Of course, it's possible that this is all feigned.  If Snape and 
Lupin are working together, then Snape could have used some 
sort of fake-binding spell, he could be faking being knocked out, 
and Lupin could have taken the wolfsbane potion and be faking 
the dementia.  Therefore neither of them appears to be in total 
control of the situation, yet during the entire time you have two 
agents ready.

There are, of course, many problems.  Why does Snape then 
"out" Remus?  It may be the matter of a simple grudge - it's quite 
possible he thought he was going to get revenge on Sirius Black 
that night and is settling for second best.  Perhaps it's the only 
thing he could do and stay within character - wouldn't HRH 
expect him to do it?  Also, if he's trying to curry favor with 
Slytherins and DEs, making things difficult for Harry Potter's 
favorite teacher and James Potter's old friend is probably a good 
way to do it.

But it explains several of the arguments you raised in the post 
I'm responding to:


> "Well there are bigger fish to fry here.  What *I* want to know is 
why
> Lupin would not have taken his wolfsbane potion.  Why do 
such a thing?
>  It seems very irresponsible."

If Lupin and Snape are both agents, then that is not a problem.  
Lupin *did* take the Wolfsbane potion, and is simply faking a 
transformation.  Snape lied about it, because Snape is an agent.



> "Actually Mel, I do not think he could fake a werewolf properly.  
Even
> if he had remembered to take the potion, the situation would 
be weird.
>  There is no way he could fake the werewolf madness without
> endangering the children - it wouldn't be believable to have 
Lupin
> chasing his own tail or baying at the moon when there were all 
those
> tasty humans around.  So we have an agent of Dumbledore 
that is very
> irresponsible, and very, very dangerous," Grey Wolf concluded 
over his
> teacup.

I have several arguments to that.  Firstly, if you believe that Lupin 
actually did transform into a true werewolf in PoA, he did so 
without actually hurting anyone.  So, it is in fact possible for a 
werewolf in that situation to be that inept.  Given that, Lupin 
faking could be convincing enough without hurting anyone.  
Secondly, Lupin has been a werewolf for nearly all his life.  He 
can probably fake it very well.  Of the people he needs to 
convince that he's truly transformed, HRH have never seen a 
werewolf before and so are easily fooled, Peter is busy 
becoming a rat and running away, and Sirius is on 
Dumbledore's side anyway.



> "Don't forget the map," Melody added.  "Lupin left the map out 
by
> mistake.  He never intended Snape to go down there."

Except that he did.  He left it there precisely so Snape would have 
an excuse to come to the Shrieking Shack, along with the 
wolfsbane potion.  (Speaking of which, if he brought it along, why 
didn't he make Lupin drink it before he transformed?  Oh, to have 
my own copy of PoA!) 





> "The 'bloodless' part is interesting though," Melody added.  
"Wouldn't
> a Mr. Calm and Cool agent Lupin be ready for this?  This is 
what is he
> is trained and ready to do.  He should of entered calmly but 
decidedly
> to bring the situation to a calm hand.  He bursted into the room 
with
> sparks flying.  Seems he is a bit too excited or a bit too afraid."

Except that until Lupin gets into the Shrieking Shack, events are 
being played out by themselves.  No agents, just a traitor, a 
possibly deranged person, and three kids.  Also, when Lupin 
leaves the Map for Snape, he's without it for several minutes.  He 
doesn't know what's going on.  He's *worried*.  Once he gets 
inside, sees that Sirius is apparently sane, and that Peter has 
not yet transformed, he's able to go back to his calm, collected 
self.




> "That's my point, Pip," Grey Wolf smiled.  "If Lupin thinks Black 
is
> innocent, there is no guilt in giving information about the full 
truth
> of Black to Dumbledore."

<snip further questions about black>

Oh, dear.  The what-did-they-know-about-Sirius-when issue.  
Let's say Lupin, like Sirius, spots Peter in the Weasley 
newspaper picture, or earlier on, on the map.  There is no way 
he doesn't go straight to Dumbledore with the information - even 
if he's not an "agent".  And the only way to explain *how* he 
knows it is to explain about the animagi.  Could he conceal the 
fact that Sirius is a dog animagi?  Possibly, but he would 
probably have to lie to Dumbledore to do so.  Or, if Lupin 
*doesn't* spot Peter pre-SS, he would still tell Dumbledore about 
Sirius being a dog animagi, because it's a vital piece of 
information about a criminal intent on killing Harry Potter.  But 
why would he lie about Dumbledore knowing?  Because if 
Dumbledore knows, then Dumbledore would've had to take 
steps to catch Sirius, and Sirius could never have either gone to 
the SS to get a life-debt (if they believe he's guilty), or stayed out 
of trouble with dementors (if they believe he's innocent).  HRH 
wouldn't accept that he knew and did nothing.

We're already taking it as a given that people are lying left and 
right in this scene.  What's one more lie?  And as has been 
noticed elsewhere, his and Dumbledore's wording is specifically 
vague on the issue.  

Ok, but what about Snape?  Snape has a real grudge against 
Sirius, will not take Peter's life as excuse for Sirius' innocence as 
Remus will, and in any case is eager to believe that he's gone 
insane.  Part of the conflict between Remus and Sirius in the 
shrieking shack could be Remus trying to get through to him that 
Sirius is innocent and sane on all counts, and Snape refusing to 
listen. 



> "Then Hermione gets hysterical about Lupin being a werewolf," 
Melody
> added.  "What would he of done if she hadn't?  Had a fireside 
chat
> about what he was?  Sit the kids down so that they could all 
talk?
> Seems a jump that he could of expected that Hermione 
figured out the
> werewolf thing."


For the other reasons stated (Snape's planting of Remus' 
werewolfishness) Lupin *could* have expected it.  And if not, 
well, why couldn't Lupin just tell them?  There's certainly plenty of 
other exposition going on.  Perhaps he could fake a slip of the 
tongue.  Perhaps he could say, "When the rat transforms he's 
going to accuse me of something, so I'd better tell you now..."  
He's been acting the part of "they deserve to know everything" - it 
wouldn't be suspicious for him to tell his secret.


<snip reasons why non-agent snape simply doesn't work>

Well, I agree - nonagent!snape doesn't work.  Let's go through 
the objections to agent!snape.



> "If he did, then he *definitely* would have left the SS alone.  And 
if
> he went down there to warn Lupin and the others of his 
werewolf
> accident, then he *really* failed in accomplishing that because
> Dumbledore and Lupin *wanted* there to be an accident," 
Melody answered.

BUT if they were working together, he has the perfect excuse to 
go give Lupin backup.  Dumbledore, Lupin *and* Snape wanted 
there to be an accident.



> 
> "Quite right," Pip jumped in.  "Lupin should have been worried 
then.
> I mean an innocent professor was just injured and 
unconscious.  That
> is not a good thing.  But does Lupin go over and check to see if 
Snape
> is all right?  Does he even check a pulse?"

No.  Because he either knows that Snape *is* faking, or he 
simply doesn't have time - with Snape out of the picture, he's the 
only agent left, so he's got to get Peter transformed and HRH & 
Sirius working together before he becomes fake!werewolf and 
takes himself out of the picture as well.  And as for Snape faking, 
he seems like he's trying to provoke someone into throwing him 
into the wall, whether it's Sirius, Harry, or HRH together.  There is 
probably a spell that allows you to hit the wall without getting any 
ill effects from it - after all, Neville does something like it before 
he even attends Hogwarts when his great-uncle throws him out 
the window. 



> "But the agent Lupin theory says that Lupin stalled for time.  He
> dragged it out a bit to give Harry time to make his decision.  
How did
> he get Black to do that too then if he did drag it out?" Pip asked.

Precisely the way former theorists have said.  By appealing to 
Sirius desire to please Harry.



> 
> "Plus the fact that *both* Black and Lupin looked 'staggered' in 
the
> text seems to say that they both had the *exact* same 
response to
> Harry.  I mean Lupin *may* be acting, but that is a damn good
> performance.  Shouldn't Lupin look a little relieved?  I mean 
Harry
> just did what it is that Lupin so desperately needed him to," 
Grey
> Wolf pointed out.

Harry is hardly a reliable narrator, and besides, we're pretty 
much taking for granted that agent!characters are good actors.  
After all, Crouch Jr. impersonated Moody for a year - Lupin can 
manage to look "staggered".



> Pip flipped on and paused.  "What was supposed to happen 
*after* Lupin
> turned into a werewolf?  What were Harry, Hermione, Ron, and 
Black,
> the people that were supposed to be there by design of the 
plan, to
> do?  They are left in the woods with nothing to do.  Snape is 
there by
> accident, so he doesn't count.  What was Lupin's and 
Dumbledore's big
> plans on that lot of people?  Hope they all walk up to the 
hospital
> wing or his office to tell all?"

Why not?  Wasn't that what, from Harry's POV, they were planning 
to do?



> "But we already proved that we can't have that Mel," Grey Wolf 
said
> looking over at her.  "An agent Snape is on orders and would 
not have
> meddled that early."

I missed the reasoning behind why he wouldn't have meddled at 
that particular point - could someone go over that for me, or point 
me in the right direction?


Anyway, thanks for reading such a long post.  Feel free to quote it 
in TBay, if you think my arguments are good enough.

~ Shauna