D.A.R.K. L.A.D.L.E.S. (WAS TBAY: Washing dishes and powders

[Tom Wall <thomasmwall@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51990

Please be warned. This post is long. ;-)


<CONTENTS>

<I.   INTRODUCTION>
<II.  ON THE MINOR POINTS>
<III. ON THE MAJOR POINTS>
<IV.  GENERAL OBSERVATIONS, OR "ON CANON">
<V.   CONCLUSION>


-----------------
<I. INTRODUCTION>
-----------------

I'd like to provide a few points before I begin.

1) BRAVO, BRAVO! Thanks, MDDT, for your well reasoned response in 
post #51925. It will be most useful in fine-tuning this alternate 
theory. Please see below in sections <II> and <III> for my replies to 
your observations.

2) I appreciate the immense effort that must have gone into writing 
your objections in the fictive TBAY style. However, I have decided 
that I'm going to write formally here, for two reasons:

  a) Because I'm not quite comfortable inserting words into others' 
mouths yet, ;-) and,

  b) Because IMHO, the elucidation of a theory should be done in the 
formal style for clarity of intent and the understanding of the 
readership.

3) This theory, like Magic Dishwasher (henceforth MD) didn't spring 
into being "fully-formed," ala Athena. It is still evolving and being 
fine-tuned. At some point, when I'm satisfied that we've covered as 
much as we can, I will post a follow-up with the complete theory.

4) The only reason I proposed this alternate reading of the Shrieking 
Shack was for it to serve as a thought-exercise that could illustrate 
how MD might be better served. In other words, I originally conceived 
of it as a sort-of "Addendum" or "Appendix" to MD. I am, however, 
amused that an acronym was proposed, and would be delighted if it 
made its way onto Hypothetic Alley, which brings me to:

5) PERSIL AUTOMATIC. Thanks for the acronym, Mr. Wolf - I appreciate 
that you must've put some time and serious thought into it, as these 
acronyms do not seem to be easy to compose, IMHO. I understand that 
some listees believe that an opponent to a theory should propose the 
acronym for it, however, as I have taken a liking to the acronyms 
that feature real words, and I have no idea what a 'persil' might be, 
I'd like to tentatively propose my own:

D.A.R.K. L.A.D.L.E.S.
Dumbledore, Against Riddle, Knows:
Lupin Achieves Debt on Life of the Enemy's Servant

Plus, there's the added irony that several of the dishwasher's 
premises buff up this theory quite nicely. ;-)

6) It should be clear by now that I deliberately tied this theory to 
MD, in some cases wholeheartedly accepting some of MD's premises. BE 
FOREWARNED: at several points in this post, I am *consciously* going 
to use arguments that the MDDT has previously used to defend MD. I am 
doing this deliberately, to make a point, despite the fact that I 
have previously disputed some of these methods, as well as their 
conclusions.

***DISCLAIMER***

IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM does this mean that I approve of the 
arguments and methods *themselves,* as IMHO they tend to involve 
tautologies, as well as deliberately-read ambiguities into the text 
that I do not believe exist, and are a stretch at best.

7) It is my hope that this will encourage the MDDT to make an effort 
to be more careful with its selection of arguments, because in 
several cases, as you will see, to oppose my point is to oppose their 
own point. It also means that in several cases, to dispute my method 
is to dispute their own. *Love* how that worked out. ;-) 

For the bachelors and bachelorettes who are unattached to a specific 
theory as of yet, as well as for the light-hearted and carefree 
amongst us who see where I am coming from when I do this, please 
smile (YAY!), as this was done deliberately on my own part. Again, 
it's only to prove a point, i.e. *not* to attack anyone. 

Repeat, not to attack *anyone.*

8) After what I consider to be a reasonable (read: rapidly-waning) 
amount of time has passed, I will let D.A.R.K. L.A.D.L.E.S. 
(henceforth DL) stand on both its own merits, and its lack thereof. 
There are other theories I'm interested in exploring, and other 
topics with which I'd like to tinker. I have *no* intention of 
assembling any sort of a defense team. I promise. ;-)

9) I would like to make it fully clear that I fully believe that DL, 
like MD, is, in fact, really not indicative of the text. It is my 
fullest hope that both shall be completely disproven by subsequent 
additions to canon. In fact, I would be deeply disappointed if either 
turned out to be true. ;-)

10) I would like to *deeply* thank everyone who has engaged the 
subject with me, especially Annemehr, whose eloquent reasoning has 
been invaluable in tweaking. ;-) On that note, I'd like to encourage 
anyone who *hasn't* posted to volunteer an objection or comment.

11) The MDDT's post had several main points, and many sprinkled 
references to other disagreements with my analysis. In that light, I 
will be replying to them in an order that is of my own choosing. 
Please keep in mind that, as long as this post is, it is *primarily* 
a response to the MDDT's post #51925.

All that said, Onward Ho!  ;-)


-------------------------
<II. ON THE MINOR POINTS>
-------------------------

I'd like to take "On the Minor Points for $100, Alex."


1) The MDDT wrote:
"As if being part of the old crowd means anything. Black, an accused
murderer, is also a part of the 'old crowd' so I am sure the 'old
crowd' has their problems."

I reply:
Sirius Black is not canonically part of the "old crowd." That is an 
inference. IMHO, a decent one, but an inference nonetheless.


2) The MDDT wrote:
"Don't forget the map," Melody added. "Lupin left the map out by
mistake. He never intended Snape to go down there."

I reply:
Yep. I bet he did forget the map. If that was Agent!Lupin's biggest 
mistake, then I'd say that it wasn't so bad. ;-)


3) The MDDT wrote:
"[Snape] never does that in canon except in PoA. He is almost always 
calm and deadpan in his words. This is the only time he looses it, 
and almost ruins everything from this read."

I reply:
No. Snape also had a tantrum on his way to the hospital wing after he 
discovered that Black had escaped. So, unless you consider both to be 
one-and-the-same, Snape actually majorly-lost his temper twice.


4) The MDDT wrote:
"Dumbledore would not have told him his plans about the night, so 
Snape would have been in the dark on that."

I reply:
Whoa! Did I miss something massive in MD? Where in MD does it suggest 
that Dumbledore orchestrated, or controlled in any way, Sirius 
Black's behavior on the night of the Shrieking Shack? As far as I can 
find in the archives, Sirius Black is a variable over whom Dumbledore 
has no control whatsoever. Unless, that is, you'd care to prove how 
Dumbledore does have control over Sirius's movements. In *that* case, 
I'll happily adopt your analysis as my own. ;-)


5) The MDDT wrote, re: 'expelliarmus':
"Something not caused by the trio of spells, but the fact
Snape slammed his head against the wall. In our view, that *could* be
faked easily. One can just hit their head on the way down. It is all
in the angle of the projection."

I reply:
"That was a Disarming Charm."
(CoS, US paperback, Ch. 11, 190)

There are three cases in canon in which 'expelliarmus' is used on a 
wizard and it results in something *other* than the removal of an 
object from the wizard's hand (which is the spell's intent):

-The first is in the 'Dueling Club,' in CoS, when Snape uses it on 
Lockhart and knocks him down.
-The second is in the Shrieking Shack, when the Trio uses it on Snape.
-The third is in the Graveyard Scene, when Harry locks wands with 
Voldemort.

At all other times, the use of 'expelliarmus' on a wizard results in 
the removal of an object from the wizard's hand. It does not, most of 
the time, result in a knock-out. Pip's 39662 posits: "This spell does 
knock the wizard off their feet." 

That is not what 'expelliarmus' does.

Even when Snape (a very powerful wizard, as the MD analysis proves) 
uses 'expelliarmus' on Lockhart (probably the biggest 'dunderhead' 
wizard we can find in the series,) he doesn't knock Lockhart out. 

MD proposes that Agent!Snape intended for what he *hoped* would be 
an 'expelliarmus' from a single, 13-year old wizard to appear 
effective enough for him to pretend to hit his head on a wall and 
subsequently pretend to be knocked out.

That is absolutely not believable. At best, in any plan, 
an 'expelliarmus' from Harry would have removed Snape's wand, as it 
does with Sirius earlier in that scene. If you really believe that 
Snape could have faked a knock-out from an 'expelliarmus' cast by a 
13-year old, then there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. 
But it's completely un-credible.


6) The MDDT wrote:
"Seems odd that the person that got the agent of Dumbledore fired 
would still work there."

I reply:
"Resigned firs' thing this mornin'."
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 22, 422)

Lupin was not fired. He resigned.


--------------------------
<III. ON THE MAJOR POINTS>
--------------------------

I'd like to take "On the Major Points for a thousand, please, Alex."

The MDDT proposed three major points at the conclusion of post 
#51925. These will be taken as points 1), 2), and 3) following these 
two paragraphs.

But, because their post included not only these three major points, 
but also sprinkled references to some other stuff, I'm going to add 
two major points to these three. The two that I have added on my own 
are numbers 4) and 5) in this list.


1) The MDDT wrote:
"That Lupin was a ticking time bomb. Lupin is a werewolf who hasn't
taken his potion. He is dangerous and deadly. Period," Grey Wolf 
nodded.

I reply:
In my original post on DL, #51835, I suggested that perhaps Lupin 
intended to engineer the escape of Pettigrew by not taking the potion 
and thus transforming into a werewolf en-route to the castle. As a 
result of subsequent discussion, and comments and suggestions from 
Pippin and Annemehr, I have decided to withdraw that, in part.

This is why:

A.) The canon is not fully in on Wolfsbane Potion yet. Numbers in 
parentheses highlight the points I will be using:

"The potion that Professor Snape has been making for me is a very 
recent discovery (1). It makes me safe, you see. As long as I take it 
in the week preceding the full moon (2), I keep my mind when I 
transform (3). . . I am able to curl up in my office, a harmless 
wolf, and wait for the moon to wane again." 
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 18, pg. 352-3) 

AND ALSO: 

"You forgot to take your potion tonight (4), so I took a gobletful 
along." 
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 19, pg. 358) 

Several points on these two quotes. Lupin himself says that he needs 
to take the potion "in the week preceding the full moon" (2), and 
Professor Snape says that Lupin forgot to take "[his] potion tonight" 
(4). 

Professor Snape doesn't discuss whether or not Lupin has taken it at 
other points in the week, nor does Lupin. Therefore, I'll submit that 
it's perfectly possible, even likely, that Lupin took it earlier in 
the week. And since we do not know "for sure" how the potion must be 
taken in order to prevent the transformation effectively, I'll reply 
thusly: canon leaves ample room for "benefit of the doubt" on this 
point, without my resorting to any drastic inference making.

B.) The MDDT wrote:
"Actually Mel, I do not think he could fake a werewolf properly. 
<snip>"

I reply:
Please refer to Grey Wolf's summary post on MD, #39854:

Grey Wolf wrote in that post:
"*Snape's act is a little too well done (Porphyria, 39685):
Defense: Snape pulls off an Oscar interpretation, and multitasks all 
the way. (Tautology)"

I comment:
Well, MDDT, if it's good enough for you, then substitute Lupin for 
Snape and it's good enough for me! ;-)

C.) Either way, Lupin's acting is not necessary, because since Sirius 
Black has been in Azkaban for 12 years, he doesn't fully understand 
the potion, since it is a "very recent discovery" (1). Because he is 
afraid that the werewolf will attack the children, Sirius transforms 
immediately to prevent any such attack:

"As the werewolf reared, snapping its long jaws, Sirius disappeared 
from Harry's side. He had transformed. The enormous, bearlike dog 
bounded forward. As the werewolf wrenched itself free of the manacle 
binding it, the dog seized it about the neck and pulled it backward, 
away from Ron and Pettigrew."
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 20, 381)

Sirius attacks the werewolf before it has even freed itself from the 
manacles, and before it has had a chance to 'act' fierce at all.  
Therefore, whether you accept that Lupin *could* have acted the part 
or not, Lupin's act wasn't necessary, because Sirius prevented it 
from needing to happen in the first place.


2) The MDDT wrote:
"Lupin takes control in the SS, instead of forcing Harry to do so.
Non agent and agent Snape with an agent Lupin are inconsistent with
canon," Pip said ticking them off on her hand.

I reply:
I'll take the control bit first, Pat. I'll refer to Snape later on. 

On control, I'd like to direct the audience's attention to Grey 
Wolf's summary post on MD, #39854.

Grey Wolf wrote in that post:
"* Harry could not make choces in the shack, which is against JKRs 
modus operandi (Pippin, 39697)
Defense: Harry is forced to grow up and make his own decisions all 
throught the scene (and metathinking is not fair play)."

I comment:
Are we talking about the same scene here? Does Harry make any more 
choices by MD's interpretation of the Shrieking Shack than in DL's?  
I'll go out on a limb here and say... 'no.' ;-) 

So, again, if it's good enough for you guys, then it more than 
satisfies me. <grin>


3) The MDDT wrote:
"Lupin is faking his desire to kill Peter. If that is true, then, how
is it that the life debt is invoked? <snip>"

I reply:
Remus Lupin has very real and tangible reasons for wanting to kill 
Peter Pettigrew.

a) As a result of Pettigrew's actions, Lupin's close friends, the 
Potters, were murdered by Lord Voldemort.

b) As a result of Pettigrew's actions, the son of Lupin's close 
friends was left orphaned.

c) As a result of Pettigrew's actions, Lupin's close friend, Sirius 
Black, was wrongfully imprisoned for twelve years in Azkaban for a 
crime that he did not commit.

d) As a result of Pettigrew's actions, Lupin was *personally* 
betrayed by a guy he considered to be a friend, and was personally 
affected by both a), b), and c).

Lupin has absolutely no need to fake his desire to kill Peter 
Pettigrew. That desire is absolutely real and based in canonical 
events.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Above are the three major points that the MDDT presented at the 
conclusion of their post. To be fair to the MDDT, and in the 
interests of leaving no stone (or as few as possible) unturned, I 
would also like to add the following two, which are compiled from 
scattered references to the specific topics in their post #51925, 
but are not included in their summary.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


4) The MDDT wrote:
"So Lupin has *no* plan," Melody concluded. "He has not pre-plan to
scrap. He has no option plans to choose from. All he has is that he
is to get a life debt?"

"He cannot have a plan," Pip stated flatly."

AND ALSO FROM THE SAME POST:

"Agent Lupin is supposed to know what to do," Melody read and asked."

I reply:
Actually, the MDDT refer to the "lack" of Lupin's plan four separate 
times in their post #51925. So, at this point, I would like to first 
quote Pip!Squeak herself, from her original MD post #39662:

"I doubt very much that Dumbledore and Snape had a plan along the 
lines of 'at Black's attack select option 1, unless the Shrieking 
Shack happens, in which case go for option 2...' "

AND

"So when Snape rushes off towards the Shrieking Shack, he doesn't 
have an exact, detailed plan; but he does have a very good idea of 
exactly what he needs to achieve, what he needs to hide, and what he 
needs to let Harry do alone.<snip>"

I comment:
>From these excerpts, we can see that Agent!Snape in MD could not have 
had a detailed plan. As I outline in my original post for DL, #51835, 
Lupin's plan was very much along the lines of the one proposed by Pip!
Squeak in her post #39662, and was vague on specifics and hastily put 
into effect. In Lupin's case, his plan involved several basic parts: 

1) Assess the situation and discover the truth, and
2) Get all the information out in the open, so that
3) A well-informed Harry can get Pettigrew in a life-debt.

On this point, slightly later in post #51925, the MDDT wrote:
"Point noted," Grey Wolf smiled. "So this excited Lupin burst in. To
do what exactly? What is his and Dumbledore?s *big* plan? Dumbledore
cannot know Black is innocent and thus planned for that little twist."

I comment:
To the contrary, perhaps you've forgotten that I willingly accepted 
Pip's premise, from her post #39662, in which she posits an Azkaban!
Hagrid. I am still using that premise in my formulations for DL. 

Therefore, if you believe that Spymaster!Dumbledore could not have 
known that Sirius Black is innocent based on Azkaban!Hagrid, then you 
will have to strike that premise from MD. Otherwise, since the MDDT 
use it, the MDDT will, however begrudgingly, have to accept it here 
as well. ;-)


5) The MDDT wrote:
"He starts getting very shrill which is very unSnape to do. In fact, 
he never does it any other time in the series. He is always calm, 
collected, and quick witted. Yet here he is a different Snape."

I reply:
The "unSnape-ness" of Professor Snape's actions is a theme referred 
to no less than five times in the MDDT's post #51925. I think I 
should dwell here a little bit on this, since they saw fit to bring 
the point up repeatedly, and also because these reiterated references 
underline most clearly a MAJOR difference between MD and DL.

Following are five separate quotes, snipped for brevity, that 
describe how the MDDT perceive the "unSnape-ness" of Snape's behavior 
in reference to DL. When I'm done with these, I will provide several 
quotes from canon. After all of the quoting, I will comment generally 
on Snape and his contrasting postions in MD and DL.

THE QUOTES FROM MDDT POST #51925:
"<snip> So this Snape then goes after him? Risks his life for what? 
All he sees is a loose cannon werewolf running *outside* on full moon 
night. Who in their right *mind* would go after him? That is 
suicidal."

AND

"<snip>He never does that in canon except in PoA. He is almost always 
calm and deadpan in his words. This is the only time he looses it, 
and almost ruins everything from this read. <snip>"

AND

"<snip> And we are to believe he went off on his own, and did not 
call anyone else for help, and went after Lupin. A Lupin that once 
Snape reaches him may kill him. Why would Snape go? He has no reason 
except suicide."

AND

"<snip> He starts getting very shrill which is very unSnape to do. In 
fact, he never does it any other time in the series. He is always 
calm, collected, and quick witted. Yet here he is a different Snape. 
<snip>"

AND

"<snip> But we are to believe this non-agent Snape went to the SS and 
then stood in the doorway and listened? For what good? <snip>"


QUOTES FROM CANON:
"You remember the conversation we had, Headmaster, just before - ah - 
the start of term?" <snip description>

"I do, Severus," said Dumbledore and there was something like warning 
in his voice.

"It seems - almost impossible - that Black could have entered the 
school without inside help. I did express my concerns when you 
*appointed* -"
[emphasis is my own]
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 9, 166)

AND

"He's been telling Dumbledore all year that I am not to be trusted. 
He has his reasons... you see, Sirius here played a trick on him 
which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me -" - Lupin
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 18, 356)

AND

"So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because 
he thought you were in on the joke?"
"That's right," sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin.
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 18, 357)

AND

"I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion 
tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did... lucky 
for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at 
it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this 
passageway and out of sight."

"Severus -" Lupin began, but Snape overrode him.

"I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your 
old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof. Not 
even I dreamed you would have the nerve to use this old place as your 
hideout -"
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 19, 358-359)

AND

"Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I 
would be the one to catch you."
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 19, 360)

I comment:
The reason I have selected these passages from the MDDT post #51925 
and from canon is because they highlight most perfectly a MAJOR split 
of opinion on the character of Professor Snape, a split of which 
explicit knowledge and pre-awareness is ESSENTIAL for anyone to fully 
understand the radically different conclusions and assumptions that 
both of these theories use.

First of all, MD paints Professor Snape in a very competent, very, 
um, masked-secretly-benevolent sort-of way. In MD, Snape is an agent 
sent by Spymaster!Dumbledore, an agent that is in the Shrieking Shack 
to do something for Harry that even Harry does not realize. In MD, 
Snape is a mysterious character, behaving as part of a mysterious 
agenda that is explicitly not given in the text. In MD, Snape is an 
enigmatic character that spends his time trying to stop the 
characters from saying that which is never said canonically. In 
short, the premises for Snape's behavior in MD involve mostly what he 
does *not* say, and what he does *not* allow to be said.

In a brief comment on the "unSnape-ness" of Snape's behavior, I'm 
wondering why the MDDT chose to highlight this at all. Surely Snape's 
behavior is "unSnape-like" no matter how you look at it. And if Snape 
is an agent, then surely he has just as much reason, if not *more,* 
to maintain his cool. Comments are welcome, but as you'll see below, 
I don't think that this behavior is "unSnape-like." In fact, given 
the circumstances, I think it's incredibly clear why he behaves this 
way.

Because, by stark contrast, DL proposes nothing less and nothing more 
than a canonically-faithful reading of Snape's behavior in the 
Shrieking Shack, and later in the hospital scene. By DL's analysis, 
there is *no* hidden agenda from Snape. He is acting *only* for the 
reason that we're given ostensibly in the text: REVENGE. 

Again: "Vengeance is very sweet," see ibid.

In DL, we see a Snape who is a vengeful, angry, bitter adult who has 
not forgiven the remaining Marauders for their prank, which might 
have cost him his life as a schoolboy. Period. Whether or not Snape 
*should* be concerned for his own life, or whether or not Snape 
*should* be looking out for the students' best interests, or whether 
or not Snape *should* be behaving rationally is not at issue here.

DL proposes that Professor Snape was, as the text suggests, blinded 
by his anger and rage, and proposes as an explanation for 
his "unSnape-like" behavior a very simple reason: Snape has never had 
to confront this episode from his past "on-screen" in canon prior to 
PoA. If Snape loses control, if Snape looks "quite deranged," then 
it's because Snape has not let go of his childhood rage against the 
Marauders. He's still holding onto it now, and it is his primary 
motivation for all of his behavior in the final scenes of this book. 

Snape's rage and desire for revenge is the explanation for following 
Lupin into the Whomping Willow. Snape's rage and desire for revenge 
is the explanation for remaining sneakily outside the door, listening 
to the conversation first from behind the door, and then listening to 
the conversation from inside under the invisibility cloak. Snape's 
total, complete rage and desire for revenge explains why he's 
described, at various points in the scene, as:


"Snape was slightly breathless, but his face was full of suppressed 
triumph." (pg. 358)
"<snip> his eyes now gleaming *fanatically.*" (pg. 359)
"It would have been impossible to say which face showed more hatred." 
(pg. 359)
"<snip> looking suddenly quite *deranged.*" (pg. 360)
"But there was a *mad glint* in Snape's eyes that Harry had never 
seen before. He seemed *beyond reason.*" (pg. 360)
"'SILENCE! I WILL NOT BE SPOKEN TO LIKE THAT!' Snape shrieked, 
looking *madder* than ever." (pg. 361)
[All emphasis is my own]
<All quotes below are from PoA, US paperback, Ch. 19)


Again, I cannot stress this distinction between MD and DL enough: 

-MD proposes that all of this is the result of a very, very talented 
actor pulling off the performance of a lifetime.
-DL proposes that this is the result of a very angry and bitter man 
who hasn't let go of his childhood fury.

Is Snape acting, or is his rage genuine?

Whichever theory you choose to endorse, if either, you should be 
considering this point probably more closely than any other in making 
your decision.


------------------------------------------
<IV. GENERAL OBSERVATIONS, OR "ON CANON.">
------------------------------------------

On a slightly more serious note: 

Based on advice in the hbfile, I decided not to post this when it was 
first finished. I decided to wait... because of what *used* to be in 
this section. Needless to say, what used to be here was, IMHO, a 
rather pedantic and overly thorough list that is not here anymore.

This section is a direct response to two lines that occur at the very 
end of the MDDT's post #51925. These lines are:

"There are many problems here with canon. Oh well. It was fun to kick 
around though."

FYI: I do not consider "Oh well." to be a line, for the more 
semantically inclined amongst us. ;-)

I'm going to take these lines one at a time.

On the first: I would like everyone who was as impressed with the 
MDDT's post #51925 at first reading as I was to realize one very 
important point - they didn't use canon once to support their 
objections or observations.

I'm not kidding. See for yourselves. Not. Once. The *entire* post is 
reasoned out, and all of the objections take the forms of, 
variously, "it *seems*" and "he *should* have" and "I don't *think,*" 
ad infinitum, ad nauseam. ;-) Not only that, but the MDDT's analysis 
manages to overlook and contradict some of their own premises in the 
process.

To the MDDT directly: a lot of listees, not the least of whom are 
yourselves, have spent a great amount of time considering MD from 
many different angles and perspectives. There have been a great many 
objections to the theory in the past, and a majority of those 
objections have included very thoughtful uses of real canon that 
would appear to completely contradict MD, if not wholly, then at 
least in part. To these objections, you claim "ambivalence!" and 
proceed, totally IMHO, to twist even some of the most obvious-seeming 
canon to support your theory. That is fine, I don't dispute your 
methods. You are more than entitled to argue your case however you 
prefer.

You make such a broad claim against my analysis, that "there are many 
problems here with canon," yet you provide *not one* quote from canon 
to support your arguments against my alternative. Your reply is a 
well-presented, well-*reasoned* argument, and nothing more. It's got 
no evidence. If my alternative theory is contradicted by canon, then 
please, do point it out to me. Show me the canon that contradicts 
what I have to say. I invite this, knowing that it will only 
strengthen the argument, and be careful of the arguments you choose. 
We all want to be consistent, now. ;-)

On the second: If I had not been posting here a month or so and 
gotten a good taste of the methods, mannerisms, and tone that you 
three often use in your posts, then I would be quite convinced that 
you were using that sardonic "kick-around" bit simply to get my goat. 
And you very nearly did. 

Then, I remembered that this is a website. ;-)

Simply stated: please think about how you would have perceived that 
line if it had been levied at yourselves.

Okay. Seriousness quite done with. Light-heartedness from here on 
out.  


----------------
<V. CONCLUSIONS>
----------------

In conclusion, I cannot stress enough that both of these theories, 
IMHO, *totally stink* at explaining what's really happening behind 
the scenes. They're both interesting. But they both draw heavy 
inferences from canon.

BUT, I'm going to submit that of the two, DL is the better at using 
canon to support itself. Why do I think that, you may ask? Well, 
aside from the reasons that I've enumerated in my original post 
#51835, there is one more that I've thought up: 

Although I readily concede that DL, as well as MD, draws heavily from 
inference, I would argue (perhaps more in depth at a later date) that 
the primary basis for DL is what *is* said in canon. In other words, 
what we *do* know. 

As far as I can see, the majority of the proofs for MD rely too 
heavily on what is *not* said. In other words, what we can *never* 
know, and probably will *never* find out, given the stipulations for 
their admission of its flaws, i.e. that JKR, who is probably not even 
remotely considering anything like MD and who probably has something 
*way* better going on in her head, that she should state 
unambiguously in canon that nothing MD proposes is going on.

The likelihood of this happening is *so* minimal. It boggles the 
mind, really. At least mine. It'll be a workable theory forever, 
though, IMHO.

That said, I'd like to throw out two objections that come to mind 
that neither theory seems to explain to my own satisfaction.


1) Variable!Sirius. No matter how we look at it, unless an argument 
can be made to support some notion of Spymaster!Dumbledore 
coordinating with Sirius Black on the night of the Shrieking Shack, 
it is Variable!Sirius who is driving all events that night. There is 
no pre-planning in conjunction with Dumbledore when Sirius decides to 
drag Ron into the Whomping Willow.

In other words, *any* plan that goes into action at that point can be 
described, IMHO, as hasty at best, and entirely vague and uncertain.


2) Clueless-about-the-map!Dumbledore. Perhaps I have pounded on this 
point too much. All the same... Please refer to your copies of GoF, 
at the end of Chapter 35.

"I used the map I had taken from Harry Potter. The map that had 
almost ruined everything."
"Map?" said Dumbledore quickly. "What map is this?"

Canonically, both Snape and Lupin saw the Marauder's Map. Yet, no 
matter who is the agent, neither seems to have mentioned that map to 
Professor Dumbledore. I cannot figure out why he doesn't seem to know 
about it in this scene, and unless someone comes up with a super-
compelling argument, this remains a substantial way to discredit both 
theories, again IMHO.

-Tom