SHIP: What did Hermione Know and When did she Know It?

[anguaorc <fausts@attglobal.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51942

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer <susannahlm at y...>" 
<susannahlm at y...> wrote:

> 2. Angua recently posted a message in which she wrote this--which I 
> somehow missed at the time--

And I only got around to reading this now.  That's okay, we can 
conduct fierce debates in stately slow motion.

Angua said:
> If Hermione knows Ron likes her and doesn't like him, I 
> >think that is cruel. 
> 
> >Of course, if she likes him and is frustrated because he won't 
admit 
> >he likes her, I don't think it's cruel at all, but perfectly 
> >understandable. :)

Derannimer said:
> And I just have to ask: "Angua, do you really *read* Hermione like 
> that?"

Me again:
Err... yes.

Derannimer:
> Because I can't even *imagine* Hermione being able to tell Ron. Not 
> the Hermione that I've always read her as, anyway.
> 
> Here's how I see the situation.
> 1. 
> Hermione knows that Ron likes her. But she doesn't have any idea of 
> this until the Yule Ball. 

Agreed.
 
Derannimer:
> Hermione looked at him in surprise. "What's up with you?" she said.
> 
> If you don't know," said Ron scathingly, "I'm not going to tell 
you."
> 
> Hermione stared at him, then at Harry, who shrugged.

> Okay, the way I've *always* read this scene (and just so's you 
know, 
> I was once, albeit very casually, R/H) is that none of the Trio has 
a 
> clue what is going on. 

Agreed, with possible slight reservations about Harry.

Derannimer:
> Hermione "looked at him in surprise" because she is *surprised.* 

Agreed.

Derannimer:
> Now, I've always found this line to be hilarious, because, of 
course, 
> *Ron* doesn't have any idea what's up with him. He is behaving in a 
> mystifying way, then acts like it's her fault when she's mystified, 
> then gives his scathingly evasive response at least *in part* to 
hide 
> the fact that he's mystified too. "I'm not going to tell you--" 
> *because I don't know, either.*

Yes.  :p

Derannimer:
> And when she does reply, she still doesn't seem to have cottoned on 
> that he likes her: Ron's already made his "Vicky" crack; he's just 
> made it patently clear that he has a real *problem* with her going 
> with Krum. But she does not blush, she doesn't avoid his eye--she 
> hasn't even really gotten angry yet. Or at least, I've always read 
> the tone of her response to be more incredulous than angry.

Still agreed.  She hasn't gotten it yet.

Derannimer:
> If she *does* know what his problem is, then what does that make 
her 
> response?
> 
> An attempt to make him state his *real* problem? A *manouver?*

Not at all.  At this point, she STILL doesn't realize Ron likes her.  
She's just trying to figure out what's bugging him.

Derannimer:
> Because that I just can't buy. I honestly can't see Hermione trying 
> to make a boy confess to that. I don't think that she would be 
> comfortable with the idea of being "liked." I don't think she'd 
know 
> how to handle it. 
> 
> I don't think she's trying to hasten that day. 
> 
> Here's why: I don't think that Hermione is feminine enough to be 
> comfortable with, well, being female. Not yet.

Whoops!  Now that I disagree with.  She's obviously having a heck of 
a time at the Yule Ball -- being on a Real Date with a Real Boy.  
Dancing.  Showing a little different side of herself.  If she were 
Unready (like Harry and Ron are), she would act Unready (like Harry 
and Ron do).  Instead, she dances with her date and attempts to 
socialize with her friends in a mature, Ready manner.

After all, girls DO mature faster than boys in this area -- surely 
everyone agrees with that.  And (WARNING - I am about to make an 
extremely controversial statement) I believe that Hermione is 10 
months older than Harry and 6 months older than Ron, giving her an 
additional advantage in being ready to be "liked."

Derannimer:
> I mean, think about Hermione for a minute: she has no girl friends, 
> she is *extremely* bookish, she is incredibly intellectually 
> oriented, she is plain, she is the kind of girl who doesn't bother 
> with the Sleek-Easy because it's too much trouble, she has never 
had 
> a boy friend. (And she is only 14, and Rowling's world is much more 
> culturally conservative than ours is--so that it's not normal for a 
> fourteen year old girl to be as savvy about boys as she would be in 
> our world, anyway. It's almost, culturally, as if it was set in the 
> time of E. Nesbit's books--say early 1900s.)

Angua
So?  You can be plain, bookish, and too busy to primp, and still want 
male attention.  I was, and did.  Look at Hermione's second-year 
crush on Lockhart for evidence of how far she is ahead of the boys in 
this department and how strong her heterosexual feelings are.  (And I 
think that she is 15).

Derannimer:
> If that kind of girl had any clue that one of her best friends was 
in 
> love/like with her, she would be mortified. Even if she was in 
> love/like with him too, she would be mortified. '

Well, I think what she'd like, *ideally*, would be a sort of "promise 
for the future" -- some indication that her friend has the same kind 
of proto-romantic feelings for her that she has for him.

Derannimer:
> So I don't think she knew he liked her. I also, btw, don't think 
> she'd given much consideration to liking *him*; if she had, she 
> would have wondered if he *could* like her, and she would have 
> cottoned on much more quickly to what his problem was, and she 
> would have been embarrassed. 

Oh, I disagree!  Ron has recently given her some *excellent* reasons 
to think he *doesn't* like her -- practically rubbing her nose in it, 
actually.  Plus you have to allow for natural insecurity, modesty, 
etc.  She will not jump too quickly to the conclusion that the boy 
she likes likes her.

Derannimer:
> Ron chose to ignore this. "I s'pose he asked you to come with him 
> while you were both in the library?"
> 
> "Yes, he did," said Hermione, the pink patches on her cheeks 
glowing 
> more brightly. "So what?"
> --------
> *Now* she is embarrassed. *Now* it mentions her cheeks pinking. 
(They 
> were originally pink because of the dancing--this is the first time 
> it mentions them getting *pinker*; the first time they change 
colour 
> *as a result of the conversation.*) 
> 
> *Now,* of course, she is also having to talk about Viktor--not in a 
> casual "Oh, he's getting drinks" and not as a "You liked him too!"--
> but as in "Viktor and me." As in, her relationship with Viktor. As 
> in, his asking her out. As in, her having to think about being 
asked 
> to go with a boy. 
> 
> As in, mortifying. To a girl like Hermione. 

Angua:
As in, mortifying.  To have to tell *the boy she likes* about another
boy liking her.  As in being afraid to be "too obvious" and giving 
herself away.  Still, I think, she has no idea that *Ron* likes 
*her*.  She is blushing because *she* likes *Ron*.

Derannimer:
> So now she blushes. But, as Ebony has brilliantly detailed 
elsewhere, 
> she is blushing for Krum. Or rather, for herself; she isn't 
> comfortable with being a girl yet, and so she blushes when she's 
> asked questions like this. As my fellow H/Hers have said, I really 
do 
> think she'd blush like this if Ginny asked her the same thing. 

Angua:
Well, we'll never know, will we?  But I re-emphasize my previously 
made point that Hermione is NOT an easy blusher, and my long list of 
times when Hermione does NOT blush.  I see no evidence that 
she "isn't comfortable with being a girl."  

Derannimer:
> Hermione gets further embarrassed about her date with Krum--and if 
> you want more implication that she's blushing *about Krum,* look at 
> this sentence:
> 
> "If you *really* want to know, he--he said he'd been coming up o 
the 
> library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn't been able to 
> pluck up the courage!"
> 
> Look at that "he--he." That's what trips her up. Krum. The Boy Who 
> Asked Her Out. That's the only reason she's blushing. 

Angua:
No way!  She is blushing because "you *really* want to know."  She is 
saying, "look, I'm not pushing this on you -- I'm not bragging and 
trying to make you jealous.  I'm only telling you because YOU 
ASKED."  It is these feelings that make her turn scarlet.  Krum is 
just a guy who brings her drinks.  She doesn't show the slightest 
embarrassment about being at the dance with Viktor.  The hesitation 
over the "he" is because she's just about to launch into the "make 
you jealous" part.

Deranimmer:
> Hermione is having a swell time with Krum. She drops in on her best 
> friends to see how they're doing, and one of her best friends 
starts 
> attacking her. She is baffled. Said best friend then forces her to 
> talk about being asked out, which is excrutiatingly embarrassing to 
> her. Then he makes an insulting implication about her 
attractiveness 
> and intelligence. She is now extremely hurt. I *still* don't think 
> she knows entirely what's going on. If she knew why he was being so 
> hateful--and certainly if she had expected or deliberately provoked 
> it in any way--then I don't think she'd be quite so hurt. 
> 
> I don't think that the situation would be quite so *distressing* to 
> her if she understood what was prompting it. 

Agreed.  I think that she would have started to feel pleased, as well 
as angry. :)  

She hasn't figured it out yet, obviously, or she wouldn't be so hurt 
by his implication that she isn't worth dating for herself.

> Then Ron blatantly accuses her of betraying Harry. 
> 
> Then she looks "outraged." (Again, "outraged," to me, has some 
> connotations also of shock. If the text said, "looking furious," 
that 
> would be one thing, but "outraged" does imply shock. Someone is 
> outraged at something they didn't expect.)

Yeah, now she's only outraged because she's being accused of 
something she clearly didn't do, and has no sensitivity about.  She 
knows perfectly well that she wouldn't betray Harry, and she knows 
perfectly well that Ron knows it too.  Heck, she can even remember 
Harry's existence now, and pull him in to defend her.  *This* is more 
comfortable ground, and going away from that stuff that was making 
her blush and hurting her feelings -- that scary boy/girl stuff.

Derannimer:
> So, now one of her best friends has accused her of betraying her 
> other best friend. At this point, she may not have a clue what 
Ron's 
> problem is, but at this point, she couldn't care less. She's not 
> bothering about being hurt or confused anymore, she's just mad. 

Yes.  Much more comfortable and safe. 

Derannimer:
> Then they have a few more angry exchanges.
> 
> Then Ron tells her to *go.* And repeats the initial offense that 
> began the whole argument, by calling Krum "Vicky." 
> 
> So her evening has basically gone straight downhill. And it's gone 
> downhill out of the blue, too, which is doubly upsetting to 
Hermione. 

Yes.  Ron has succeeded in his (unconscious) objective.  Hermione is 
thinking more about Ron and the crazy, stupid things he said than 
about Krum, the guy she's supposed to be dating.  I have no doubt 
that sometime during this evening, before she goes sweeping past Ron 
and Harry on the way upstairs, is when she has her "aha" moment:  

"Ron likes me.  Ron *likes* me.  Well!  If he thinks he's going to 
win me over with *those* tactics, he's got another think coming.  
I'll just enjoy my evening with Viktor and ignore HIM completely.  
Where is he, anyway? -- No!  I won't think about him and how terribly 
unfair it was of him to assume that -- I'm sorry, Viktor, what did 
you say?" etc.

Derannimer:
> "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not 
> as a last resort!"
> --------
> I think this may be the moment (this or, a few seconds later, the 
> memory of his goldfish reaction) when Hermione finally clues in. 
> 
> And confronts him with what his problem really is.
> 
> But she is only able to confront him because she has had a lousy 
> evening with him, and she is really mad. 

Yes, I agree, except that I think that our Hermione is too smart to 
take that long to figure it out.  I think she had plenty of time 
during the Ball to mull it over and come to her usual logical, 
correct conclusion.

We know that Harry thinks she's figured it out, because he says so 
(and Harry has had time to think about it as well).

But, yes, because she is charged up with adrenaline and fury, and 
because Ron is making such wild, ridiculous charges, the words come 
straight out of her mouth.  The words that she would never have said 
in a million, trillion years if she hadn't been in a passion.  The 
words that seem to imply that she *wanted* Ron to ask her to the Ball 
and that she was *hurt* that he only asked her as a last resort.  
Those words.

Derannimer:
> The next day, of course, she is embarrassed beyond mortal utterance-
-
> *Ron likes her*--and so is he, and so they both pretend very hard 
> that nothing has happened. 

Yes, she is embarrassed beyond mortal utterance by what she has 
*revealed*, especially since that utter and complete idiot and moron 
Ron Weasley WON'T EVEN ADMIT that he likes her.  Both of them have 
revealed what they're not ready to have revealed and they're not 
ready to deal with.  Much better for them both to pretend that 
nothing ever happened.

Derannimer:
> 2. 
> Hermione doesn't like Ron. (Not that way, I mean.)
> 
> This question has already been argued *a lot,* and I don't know 
what 
> more I have to say about it. 

Yes, yes, I know -- all the stuff with Fleur, and the thing with 
Padma, and the troll thing, and the "took you three years to notice" 
thing and the "next time ask me first" thing, and all the blushing -- 
they all have possible alternate explanations, don't they?  

It's just a long series of COINCIDENCES that give the ILLUSORY 
impression that Hermione likes Ron that way, no doubt as a red 
herring for the inevitable soul-match of H/H.  ;) Nothing that would 
fool a *deep* reader, of course!  The fact that the H-->R evidence is 
sooo similar in style to the R-->H evidence is just another attempt 
by JKR to fool us, tricky wench that she is.

Derannimer:
> 3.
> But Hermione does dearly like Ron as a friend.
> Well, duh.
> 4. 
> So she doesn't want to hurt him. 
> 5. 
> It would hurt him to tell him she doesn't like him. And she isn't 
> going to have that conversation without dying of sheer 
embarrassment anyway.

Uhh, the easiest way out of this situation is to have a different 
boyfriend.  If she's dating Krum, she can let Ron's hopes down 
without the embarrassment of "there's just something about you I 
don't like."  It's the obvious and simplest way to say no to someone, 
which is why it's so incredibly popular:  "I'm sorry, I'm going with 
someone else."  "I'm sorry, I'm married."  "I'm sorry, I'm busy that 
night."  It works great.

Derannimer:
> 6. 
> So, just as she and Ron pretended that the evening of the Yule Ball 
> never happened, so she is going to continue pretending that he 
> doesn't like her.
> 
> If she ignores it long enough, maybe it will just go away, and 
> everything can be like it was, and she won't have to deal with this 
> embarrassing situation.

Are we talking about Hermione Granger here?  She's not much of one 
for just ignoring things and hoping they will go away!  She's more 
the blunt confrontation and action-taking type.  *Ron* is the one who 
ignores things and hopes they will go away.

Haven't we ALL been in a similar situation at one time or another?  
When someone liked us and we didn't like them back?  The important 
thing to do is not to lead them on.  The sooner you make it clear 
you're not interested, the sooner they will get over it and move on 
to someone else.  Hermione has *such* an easy, obvious way to do that 
here.  Whatever degree of a relationship she has with Viktor, she can 
use it to give Ron the "no" message.  It should be easy for Ron to 
understand and believe that someone would prefer his big Quidditch 
hero to little old him.  But she doesn't do that.

Derannimer:
> 7.  
> So when he asks her about Krum, it is entirely natural that she 
> dodges. It is utterly out of the question that she would "look him 
> straight in the eye and tell him about Krum, giving him the bad 
news 
> as soon as possible." She just can't do that.

I don't see why not.  She's had plenty of time to prepare for it and 
steel herself for the task.  She must know it's kinder in the long 
run.  Hermione is a sensible girl and she's well-known for giving the 
boys unpleasant truths.  She's an upfront kind of girl in general.  
If she's going to Bulgaria, she's going.  If she's not, she's not.  
Either way, there's nothing to stop her from telling Ron and Harry 
about her plans for the summer.  She wouldn't have to openly 
acknowledge Ron's embarrassing feelings in any way.  It's just a FACT.

Derannimer: 
> 8.
> Anyway (Derannimer realizes suddenly that she could have answered 
> this argument much more quickly) she *didn't* refuse to tell him.
> 
> The first time, she was too embarrassed talking about Viktor to 
even 
> notice Ron's question, and the second time, she's interupted by 
Snape.
> And, IIRC, the question is never brought up again, by Ron or anyone 
> else. So she didn't "refuse to tell him."

She avoids the question twice (I don't believe she "didn't notice" 
it).  She leaves Ron in suspense for the next six months, when she 
*knows* he has those feelings for her.  She could have told Harry, if 
she'd wanted to, trusting that Harry would tell Ron.  Or Ginny, for 
that matter.  I say she doesn't want Ron to know.  Just as she didn't 
want Ron to know the identity of her Yule Ball date.  She has a 
*reason* for keeping secrets, and I believe I know what that reason 
is.


Angua, the slow one