MAGIC DISHWASHER and PERSIL AUTOMATIC/DARK LADLES

[Crunchy Frog]

No: HPFGUIDX 52032

(BTW, Tom, Persil is a dish-soap for dishwashers. Either that, or it's 
laundry soap, I'm not sure, maybe it's both :-). )

The big issue regarding MAGIC DISHWASHER and PERSIL AUTOMATIC/DARK LADLES 
(hence forward known as MD and PA/DL respectively) is who did Dumbledore 
send to the Shrieking Shack - Snape or Lupin.
(BTW, I agree with Tom that both theories do little to explain what 
percisely goes on in the text itself, and the only one who could actually 
explain it is JKR. MD and PA/DL are both very plausible and very nice, 
though, and I like them as theories).

MD says that Snape was sent.
PA/DL says that Lupin was the one sent.

I am of the opinion that he might have sent both of them.

Lupin and Snape don't know that they are supposed to both be at the same 
time in the SS. Dumbledore must have given them orders that as soon as they 
see the correct combination of people in the same room, they should go there 
and do what they have to do.

So as soon as he sees Harry, Ron, Hermione Peter and Sirius, Lupin goes 
there, genuinely forgetting to take the Wolfsbane potion. "And then I saw 
another dot, moving fast towards you, labelled Sirius Black ... I saw him 
collide with you, I watched as he pulled two of you into the Whomping Willow 
-" (PoA, "Cat, Rat and Dog", p. 374)

What feels wrong to me is that Dumbledore, in this scenario, would have to 
tell Lupin that Wormtail is actually alive, and that Sirius didn't kill him, 
because then Lupin's almost-epiphanic revelation that Sirius is actually 
innocent ("Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing something 
beyond Black [...] Next moment, he had walked to Black's side, seized his 
hand, pulled him to his feet so that Crookshanks fell to the floor, and 
embraced Black like a brother" (PoA, "Cat, Rat and Dog", p. 370-371) ) would 
have been less-than genuine.

Dumbledore might have said to Lupin to take the first opportunity in which 
he sees Sirius and Harry in the same room and go there to Tell All.

IMHO, Lupin would indeed make a terrible agent. Not because he forgot to 
take his medication. He could have been sitting in his office waiting for 
Snape to bring him the potion, and while he was there, already having 
checked all the papers and exams (since I don't like to think of a 
Procrastinator!Lupin. Evil!Lupin, under the right... erm... persuasion 
(::cough::Imperio::cough:: *g*) I might be able to stomach, but not 
Procrastinator!Lupin), decided to wallow in a bit of nostalgia and while he 
was at it, keep an eye out on the Trio, and when he would see that Peter was 
with them, all thoughts about Wolfsbane would be forgotten.

Lupin would make a terrible agent because everyone knows where *his* 
loyalties lie (as I said, I don't buy all the Evil!Lupin theories). Unlike 
Snape, he can't go to Voldemort and pretend he's still a nice (?) Death 
Eater. And besides, if people know that he is a Werewolf (which most people 
distrust and fear), no one would want to even be near him: "[Dumbledore] let 
me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job, when I have been shunned 
all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am." (PoA, 
"Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs", p.383).

Another thing. Why was Lupin hired as the DADA Professor in that specific 
year? and which event happened first - Black's escape from Azkaban or Lupin 
getting the DADA teaching position at Hogwarts?

In message #51925, Melody says that one of the reasons why Lupin can't be 
one of Dumbledore's agents is because he keeps important information such as 
Black being an Animagus from Dumbledore.

I believe that he really doesn't tell this to Dumbledore because of the 
reasons he gives to the Trio in the SS: "It would have meant admitting that 
I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others 
along with me ... and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me." (PoA, 
"Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs", p.383)

Lupin is part of the Old Crowd, but he isn't a spy, or at least, not in the 
same sense that Snape is a spy.

His job in the SS scene is to Tell All to Harry. He *did* want to kill 
Peter, but he was first very persistent with the idea that the kids have to 
understand what was going on first: "WAIT! You can't do it just like that - 
they need to understand - we've got to explain -" (PoA, "Moony, Wormtail, 
Padfoot and Prongs, p.376)
and just a few minutes later, Lupin says "You should have realised, if 
Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Goodbye Peter." (PoA, "The Servant of 
Lord Voldemort", p. 404).

>From a very logical point of view, if an animagus reverts to his original, 
human shape when killed in his animal form, then it *would* have been much 
easier to first kill Peter and then tell the whole thing. A freshly dead 
Peter would be proof enough that Sirius didn't kill him 12 years earlier. No 
one dies twice.

And if an Animagus' body remains in the shape in which he has been killed, 
then it would have been simple to make Peter turn back to human and kill him 
immediately, and then explain the whole thing.

But Lupin didn't do neither, because he *had* to tell Harry everything.

Now, as for Snape's part in the SS.

He also, was probably under instructions of going to their location if he 
finds out that Peter, Harry, Sirius and Lupin are all in the same place.

This doesn't mean that the SS scene was staged. I mean, it was staged, but 
by Sirius. Not by Dumbledore, or by Snape or by Lupin.

Snape goes to Lupin's office, to give him the Wolfsbane, and he sees that 
Lupin is gone. He looks at the map, forgotten on the desk in the haste to 
get there, and goes after the group.

On his way to the Whomping Willow he spots the Invisibility Cloak, which 
makes a nice addition, and an extra precaution, and a good thing to have if 
you're going to pretend to be a raving madman out to get even with your 
childhood nemesis, while making sure that Peter goes back to Voldemort 
having a convenient life debt for Harry. Helps to make sure that he can 
barge in at the perfect timing.

Now, Snape, according to MD, doesn't want the words "Peter", "Pettigrew", 
"rat" and "Animagus" spoken in the same sentence, that's why he keeps 
shutting people up.

He also wants to let Peter escape, and as Pip Squeak points out, in order to 
fake incompetence properly, he has to also fake unconsciousness.

I think that the life debt situation created a real life debt.
Lupin and Sirius had all the intention of killing Peter, and neither they 
nor Harry (and also neither Peter) knew that Snape had all the intention of 
letting Peter escape while owing his life to Harry.

Lupin's and Sirius intent to kill Peter is genuine.

The occasion of Lupin forgetting his potion might or might not be 
deliberate, but it does have interesting results.

Who gets to be tied to Peter? Lupin and Ron.

As soon as the full moon appears from behind the clouds (however his 
transformations are triggered, that is not the issue), Lupin transforms.

Sirius immediately transforms into his dog shape and makes Werewolf!Lupin go 
to the Forbidden Forest. So now, Peter also has an inconvenient life-debt to 
Sirius.

Now, replying to stuff that MDDT said in their combined post:

>"Lupin takes control in the SS, instead of forcing Harry to do so.
>Non agent and agent Snape with an agent Lupin are inconsistent with
>canon,"

How is that inconsistent with Canon?

>"Lupin is faking his desire to kill Peter..."

IMO, he isn't, as I said earlier.

>"Snape got Lupin fired in the end. Seems odd that the person that got >the 
>agent of Dumbledore fired would still work there. *Or* if Snape >was an 
>agent too, then he would know the importance of having agent >Lupin around, 
>therefore; Snape would have held his tongue."

Well, I shall quote this part out of GoF:

"- we never knew the names of every one of our fellows - he alone knew 
exactly who we all were -"
"Which was a wise move, wasn't it, as it prevented someone like you, 
Karkaroff, turning all of them in," muttered Moody.
(GoF, "The Pensieve", p.511)

Since both sides in the war rely on spies, information, misinformation and 
all around sneakiness and secretiveness, would it be a far leap of logic to 
assume that Dumbledore also didn't let his agents and spies know who all of 
the other spies were?

Hoping that her post makes some sense and that she won't be pelted with 
dungbombs from both Tom Wall and the MDDT ;-),
Crunchy Chocolate Frog (with a card of Agrippa)

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Mr. Hilton: Oh, we use only the finest baby frogs, dew-picked and flown from 
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sealed in a succulent, Swiss, quintuple-smooth, treble-milk chocolate 
envelope, and lovingly frosted with glucose.

Inspector: That's as may be, but it's still a frog!

Mr. Hilton: What else?

Inspector: Well, don't you even take the bones out?

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~"Crunchy Frog", Monty Python~


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