Agency in the Shrieking Shack (WAS: MAGIC DISHWASHER and PERSIL AUTOMATIC/DARK L

Thu Feb 13 19:51:16 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 52120

NOTE: responses & comments on both 
Shauna's post #51926 and Crunchy 
Chocolate Frog's post #52032 are 
here, along with a few general 
comments.

Oh well done you two! Way to keep the 
ball rolling. ;-)

This is so wonderful, really, I 
*love* this discussion, and all of 
the possibilities that it has 
generated. IMHO, this speaks *loads* 
for Magic Dishwasher and its uncanny 
tendency to really get the imagination 
rolling.

Oh, and before I begin, Crunchy Frog wrote:
"Hoping that her post makes some sense and that she won't be pelted 
with dungbombs from both Tom Wall and the MDDT ;-)"

I reply:
No dungbombs, promise. Canary Creams, now, they're a totally 
different story. ;-)

I'll quote Crunchy Frog here from post #52032, because I think that 
you hit the nail right on the head with this line.

"The big issue regarding MAGIC DISHWASHER and PERSIL AUTOMATIC/DARK 
LADLES (hence forward known as MD and PA/DL respectively) is who did 
Dumbledore send to the Shrieking Shack - Snape or Lupin."

Exactly - no one's questioning Spymaster!Dumbledore - just the form 
in which this might manifest itself in the Shrieking Shack. 

This helped me to notice a little trend here. All of these theories 
stand in contrast to PRESSURE COOKER (still love it, all the same) in 
that they all accept the notion of a Spymaster!Dumbledore attempting 
to orchestrate some control over the events in the Shrieking Shack.

I think, again, this speaks LOADS for Magic Dishwasher, in that all 
of these offshoots aren't questioning the basic idea of a Spymaster!
Dumbledore – they're all just sort of throwing around possible twists 
to the idea, twists that, IMHO, are all very plausible and believable.

In that sense, perhaps Hypothetic Alley could present a kind of 
Spymaster!Dumbledore section in which all of them are listed as 
possibilities. 

Just an idea, probably better sent to the mods or something. ;-)

Anyways, both Shauna and Crunchy Frog posit notions of Double Agency 
in the Shrieking Shack, and illuminate possibilities that, IMHO, are 
excellent.

As a thought, I came up with an acronym to cover both of these 
scenarios:

S.A.D.D.L.E.S. -

Snape, Agent of Dumbledore, Doubles with Lupin to Engage the Spy.

Perhaps Shauna's is sort of a SADDLES 1, and the Frog's is sort of a 
SADDLES 2. This is why:

Shauna's proposes a situation in which both are agents, and both KNOW 
that the other is an agent. Post 51926.

Crunchy Frog proposes a scenario in which both are agents, and both 
DON'T KNOW that the other is an agent. Post 52032.

Anyways, I love them both, and would like to highly encourage both of 
the authors to develop them more in depth, as they both stand 
alongside the other offshoots of the basic Spymaster!Dumbledore 
theory as *extremely* believable, at least, IMHO, as wacky behind-the-
scenes theories go. How many times can *you* use the word "both" in 
several sentences? <grin>

Okay, I've got a few comments on them, as well.

One of the tenets that both seem to take into account, is along the 
lines of my Variable!Sirius objection to other theories of this 
nature. Here are two quotes:

Shauna wrote:
"Except that until Lupin gets into the Shrieking Shack, events are 
being played out by themselves. No agents, just a traitor, a 
possibly deranged person, and three kids."

AND Crunchy Frog wrote:
"This doesn't mean that the SS scene was staged. I mean, it was 
staged, but by Sirius. Not by Dumbledore, or by Snape or by Lupin."

I comment:
So, (and again, MDDT, if I'm missing something on this point from one 
of the zillions of threads on MD, then I'm super sorry – reading up 
on this stuff is like doing homework for ninety classes at once) what 
we're dealing with is a situation in which *some* plan was being, er, 
planned, but which must have been put into action hastily, and 
possibly with some adaptation. I mean, this is because it is *Sirius* 
who is driving events at the end of PoA, and there's no canon support 
for an Agent!Sirius that I've seen. . . again, Agent!Sirius, anyone? 
Good luck with *that.* ;-)

As Annemehr points out quite astutely:
Or that he's just switching it from Sirius to Peter (which, 
admittedly, has a *much* better chance of working out) -- and no real 
need to speak to Dumbledore, IMO <she says yet again...<g> >

I comment:
I think that Annemehr's really got a point here – no matter what the 
plan is, there isn't really any need, nor, if you think about it, any 
*way* for any agent to be in touch with Dumbledore before the 
Shrieking Shack. Check out the chronology that we see in "Hermione's 
Secret," Chapter 21 of PoA. Page numbers are from the US paperback 
edition:

(404) "Dumbledore, Macnair, Fudge, and the old committee member were 
making their way up to the castle."

(404) "For a few minutes the scene was deserted. Then – 
`Here comes Lupin!'"

We have a brief conversation between H&H, and then:

(405) "It was Hagrid, making his way up to the castle, <snip>"

H&H tussle with Buckbeak for a little bit, and then we get:

(405) "Barely two minutes later, the castle doors flew open yet 
again, and Snape came charging out of them, <snip>"

I comment:
Taking all of this into account, I think that we're talking, like, 
liberally estimating here, maybe 10-15 minutes MAX from Dumbledore's 
entrance into Hogwarts, to Snape's exit. So, no matter who is the 
agent, Snape, Lupin, or both of them, there's really no time to chit-
chat with Dumbledore, no matter how one looks at it – first, because 
there's so little time, and second, because of who he is with. 

So, any agent should have had um, whatever planned beforehand to such 
a degree that it could be implemented in a last minute situation, 
which, since Sirius Black is the catalyst for all of this, it 
certainly is.

Okay, now some more post-specific comments.

Shauna wrote:
Harry is hardly a reliable narrator, and besides, we're pretty 
much taking for granted that agent!characters are good actors. 
After all, Crouch Jr. impersonated Moody for a year - Lupin can 
manage to look "staggered".

I reply:
I'm all for that – I mean, no matter who we're talking about, 
accepting that these Spymaster bits might be true is basically 
accepting that *someone,* and perhaps *several* people, are great 
actors. You just gotta take it if you want the theory to work, IMHO. 
Although, I have to confess, I don't particularly like the idea that 
anyone's acting *too* much. 

Crunchy Chocolate Frog wrote:
Lupin would make a terrible agent because everyone knows where *his* 
loyalties lie (as I said, I don't buy all the Evil!Lupin theories). 
Unlike Snape, he can't go to Voldemort and pretend he's still a nice 
(?) Death Eater.

I reply:
Maybe I wasn't totally clear on this point: I don't think Lupin would 
be the best candidate for a spy, in the sense of spying on the Death 
Eaters – but as far as dealing with the two remaining Marauders and 
the kids, who clearly love him? Yep – I think that, as an agent in 
the Shrieking Shack, Lupin is probably the best candidate for the job.

So, anyways, those were just some quick thoughts. I hope that we see 
more of this stuff in the future – I love it, really, although I'm 
wary at the same time – too much conspiracy means that I end up 
trusting nothing, and that's no fun, IMHO. ;-)

-Tom, who is mortified that he left his very own copy of CoS at the 
library yesterday and that it's not there any more.