SUNLIGHT ULTRA (Was TBAY: Washing dishes and powders

[Tom Wall <thomasmwall@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 52217

Just excellent, excellent, very well done! I think that SUNLIGHT 
ULTRA is another excellent possible account for events on the night 
of the Shrieking Shack. The more the merrier...

I've got a few questions and comments that maybe you two could shed 
some light on.


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"I've broken it!" she said in horror. "Obviously the two theories 
can't work together!"

I reply:
Ummm, this has gotten me thinking about MD's acronym - it now appears 
to me as kind-of a misnomer, now that all of these other ideas are 
rearing their heads. See my reasoning:

MD=Mysterious Agendas Generate Interesting Conclusion:
Dumbledore Is Secretly Hatching Ways to Assure Superiority for Harry 
in the Emerging Resolution.

In other words, MD=Spymaster!Dumbledore, and therefore all of these 
alternatives could adequately fit under that mantle, because they all 
assume Spymaster!Dumbledore.

I'm guessing here that the MDDT are fairly attached to their acronym, 
but they also seem fairly attached to Agent!Snape, and I can't tell 
which they prefer more. So, might I suggest that if Agent!Snape is 
integral to what the MDDT consider to be MD, then perhaps it might be 
prudent to tweak the name a bit? Otherwise, I'd say that PA/DL and SU 
are, essentially, Magic Dishwashers themselves. ;-)


Anyways, moving on...

Risti & Shauna wrote:
"The fact is that Spymaster!Dumbledore wants both minimum and a 
maximum control. On the one hand, he wants to make sure that his plan 
works out, and that nothing goes horribly wrong. So, in order to have 
a maximum of control over the situation, Dumbledore plants *two* 
spies in the situation," 

I reply:
I really like this - I can see why Spymaster!Dumbledore would 
orchestrate things this way. I also liked Crunchy Chocolate Frog's 
analysis of the dual-agent bit as well, since *those* two agents 
didn't know that they were agents. Full of possibilities...


Risti & Shauna wrote:
And when Lupin transforms, Snape regains consciousness."

I reply:
Well, canonically we have Snape waking up after the dementors have 
already been scared off by Harry's Patronus. So, are you two 
suggesting that Snape was actually a sort-of witness to the whole 
dementor/Patronus bit?


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"Then, Secret Agent!Snape binds Potential Werewolf!Lupin, his first 
truly thought out move of the day. Then he gets the kids riled up, 
so that he can fake that they knocked him out.

I reply:
So, are you saying that Agent!Lupin *expected* Snape to do something 
like this all along? 

And, does that mean that you two accept the idea that Agent!Snape 
could have planned on being knocked out by an 'expelliarmus' from 
Harry, OR, more interestingly, that Snape was deliberately goading 
*all three* of the kids, knowing that *that* would result in a more 
powerful blow?  But, since the blow from the three kids *is* more 
powerful, that would arguably be enough to knock him out, right? 

And finally, are you guys of the school of thought that Snape 
actually *was* or *wasn't* knocked out? I'm not sure if I was able to 
get that clearly. (That's one of the reasons I've been avoiding the 
TBAY style for this stuff...) I mean, you have him listening to the 
conversation, but then, the canon would suggest that Snape was 
genuinely knocked out in the tunnel:

"[Snape] kept bumping his lolling head on the low ceiling. Harry had 
the impression that Black was making no effort to prevent this."
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 20, 378)

AND

"Snape's head was scraping the ceiling but Black didn't seem to care."
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 20, 379)

So, we have canon to suggest that Snape's head is being, um, molested 
in the tunnel. And IMHO, that's not consistent with Snape 
*pretending* to be knocked out, because an awareness of that kind of 
pain would have resulted in some sort of grunt or moan or something, 
right? Just wondering...


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"One of these days that boy is going to have to stop hiding behind 
his owl," Risti said, shaking his her head.

I reply:
*chuckle* This line made me laugh when I read it. I haven't been 
using the TBAY for a few reasons: 1) The style makes it harder to 
tell where one is going with something, 2) It takes so much effort to 
write a theory out in that way, and 3) I'm still not too comfortable 
inserting words into others' mouths yet. Perhaps when I'm more aware 
of everyone's default positions, then I could be, but I'm not right 
now. <grin>


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"Spymaster!Dumbledore 
realizes that Harry is going to need some extra protection this 
year. He also knows that Harry is going to need to have someone 
around who can sympathize when he inevitably finds out the truth 
about Sirius Black's crime. So Dumbledore decides the best plan 
would be to hire Remus Lupin in the official position of DADA 
Professor, and the unofficial position of Secret Agent."

I reply:
I really like this. It's along my own lines of thought on Lupin as 
DADA professor as well. And, so, I'm guessing that you guys are 
accepting Azkaban!Hagrid in your formulations as well? IMHO, I really 
like that inference. It's something that I had totally forgotten 
about by the end of GoF. 


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"Do you really 
think it was coincidence that Lupin was in the same compartment as 
the trio, when we've never even seen a teacher on the train?"

I reply:
This is also en excellent point that I hadn't even considered before. 
Nice work here.


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"I don't think that Lupin and Snape really hate each other," Shauna 
said, causing the jaws of everyone else in the room to drop.
<snip>
Recall, if you 
will, "Flight of the Fat Lady" (p. 156) where Snape unexpectedly 
walks in on Harry and Lupin conversing. How do they address each 
other? "Thanks very much, Severus." "Not at all," said Snape. Where, 
in this conversation, is their vicious enmity?"

I reply:
I like your use of canon on this as well - nice idea, that they might 
just be faking the hatred.


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"Spymaster!Dumbledore may have 
started with the idea of extra protection for Harry, but I'm sure his 
mind didn't stop there. He knows that Sirius is going to try and 
attack Harry, and he has to be ready for it."

I reply:
Okay, this is another point I'm a little confused on. Are you guys 
saying that Spymaster!Dumbledore *was* or *wasn't* aware of the 
switch in Secret Keepers? I see that you would seem to have a 
disagreement on this point yourselves. Hmmm. So, you're really not 
proposing anything concrete, right? A lot of the stuff that you don't 
have support for, you're just saying 'Well, it *could* work this way, 
and it *could* work that way,' right? IMHO that's okay, I'm not 
trying to pick on that point. I just want to know that that's what 
you're doing. You know the 'flexibility' bit and all...


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"As they're making these plans, certain actions do start to take 
place. When Lupin is unavailable to teach, Snape steps in, to 
strategically place some information. In his usual manner, he checks 
to see if anyone knows anything about werewolves."

I reply:
This is also a nice point, assuming that the two are working 
together. You can add to it Lupin's line at the end of the novel, 
where he says:

"Ages," Hermione whispered. "Since I did Professor Snape's essay..."
"He'll be delighted," said Lupin coolly. "He assigned that essay 
hoping someone would realize what my symptoms meant..."
(PoA, US paperback, Ch. 17, 346)

So, you could add this passage to what you're already using, and 
interpret it this way (or along these lines):

'He assigned that essay [and I know that this is the reason that he 
assigned it] hoping someone [Hermione] would realize...'

See? Pretty nice work here, I must say.


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"Just in case," said Risti with a smile, "This theory is full 
of `just in case' reasoning, as any good spy plan should be.

I reply:
Yeah - I guess I answered my earlier question. As long as you're 
aware of it, that's cool by me, although it means that SUNLIGHT ULTRA 
relies more on inferences than either of the other two. Although I 
bet we could keep digging around for more...


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"Aha!" cried Pip in jubilation, "If Lupin is a Secret Agent, then why 
didn't he go and capture Sirius then and there?"

Risti looked at Pip blankly. "You came up with MD, right?" Pip 
nodded. "What's the whole purpose behind this year." Pip's face 
looked confused for a moment as she thought about what Risti said, 
and then it dawned on her.

"Oh, right. Dumbledore wants Harry to get the life debt."
END QUOTE.

I reply:
This is fantastic. I was wondering about that bit myself - i.e. Lupin 
had the map for a while, so he should have seen Sirius on it 
before... nice solution there. ;-)


Risti & Shauna wrote:
Most people have wondered why Snape or Lupin didn't 
notice two sets of Harry and Hermione. The answer is, they did 
notice, that's what tipped them off that something happened that 
night. Remember, Harry and Hermione went back to before Buckbeak's 
Appeal. If Lupin noticed them right away, that actually gives them 
quite a bit of time before Lupin actually enters the scene. During 
this time, Snape either comes in with the Wolfsbane potion, or Lupin 
summons them. I also think that they might have notified Dumbledore, 
although I can't find a time for them to have done that."

I reply:
I agree - the chronology is a difficult thing to work around. By 
canon, there's no way Snape would have seen the double HH's running 
around, because he only saw Lupin darting off the map towards the 
Shrieking Shack. By that time, HHR were already in the shack. So by 
canon, Snape would have only seen one pair of HH. But, if you fill in 
the back off-screen stuff, then Lupin could have mentioned it to 
Snape earlier. Yeah, I can see how that would have worked. 

And again, you're totally right about Albus - one way or the other, 
there is practically *no* time for the agent/s to dilly-dally and 
talk to him before things get rolling. In a sense, the agent/s are 
acting on their own, one way or the other, with very little current 
imput from Dumbledore.


Risti & Shauna wrote:
There is no way that Agent Lupin (or 
Spymaster Dumbledore) would take the risk of skipping his Wolfsbane 
potion when there is a much simpler way around it - to take it and 
pretend that he hadn't. Wolfsbane rids the werewolf only of his 
dementia, not the transformation itself. He can fake it. Why endanger 
everyone if he doesn't have to?"

I reply:
Well, I argued in my response to the MDDT that the canon's out on 
Wolfsbane potion so far - so, Lupin might have taken it enough 
earlier in the week to cover this problem. Or, as you suggest, he 
might be lying about not taking it. Wondering what you think about 
that...


Risti & Shauna wrote:
"Ahh, but even the most brilliantly laid plans must sometimes be laid 
aside. When Lupin and Snape spotted Pettigrew on the map along with 
Sirius, they knew that something wasn't right. They didn't have time 
to come up with too many other plans, however, and decided that 
they'd probably have to wing it off of the plan that they'd already 
come up with.

I reply:
Two points on this passage: 
1) If Lupin had been watching the map for quite a while now, and had 
seen Sirius on it, then he would have seen Pettigrew already, right?
2) Again, I totally agree here - the plan is being implemented as a 
last minute thing, so there are definitely holes in whatever plans 
are being made, and I agree that it was probably a spin-off of an 
earlier plan.


Anyways, you two, really nice work, here, I like it a lot. If we can 
clean it up and prop it up with some more canon, then I think we'll 
have something that really makes sense and explains everything that 
night really well. Great job!

-Tom