Austen and Why Parallels DO Exist for R/H and/or H/G (was Re: Austen and why parallels do not exist for R/H and/or H/G)

Tue Feb 18 15:28:33 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 52434

Heidi said:

> As a P&P fan, I cannot see any similarities between
> Ron and Darcy - none whatsoever. Furthermore, given
> that a major argument of many R/H shippers is that 
> they are *both* already interested in each other, I
> would think that this argument would be utterly
> anihalated by a comparison with Elizabeth & Darcy, 
> given that she didn't find him at all intriguing, 
> from a romantic point of view, until she took in his

> grounds at Pemberley, which would be, in 
> a "parallel" much later in the relationship than 
> Hermione and Ron currently are in terms of 
> friendship.

Oooh boy, a Jane Austen discussion and HP discussion
wrapped in one!  It's my dream come true!

Ahem, I will agree with Heidi in that I do not think
that Ron and Mr. Darcy have similar personalities or
temperaments.  However, I do see a similarity between
Hermione and Elizabeth in that I don't think Hermione
consciously thinks of Ron as a love interest, just as
Elizabeth did not consciously think of Mr. Darcy as
one.  However, had Elizabeth stepped back and looked
at things a little more objectively, she would have
realized that Mr. Darcy was perfect for her because he
engaged her mind in a way that no other man was
capable of doing.  I would say the same thing's going
on with Ron and Hermione.  She, like Elizabeth, is
overtly blind to the charms of her potential love
interest while subconsciously seeing and reacting to
them.

As far as the witty banter versus nasty bickering
argument goes, I have not yet read any of the posts
that were suggested so this entirely my POV.  My
husband and I bicker all the time.  People actually
laugh at us because we're always grousing at one
another about something.  In fact, our relationship
reminds me a LOT of Ron and Hermione.  He is very much
like Ron in both personality and appearance and I am
very much like Hermione in both regards (how well I
remember being a bushy-haired pre-teen :) ).  What we
say to one another might sound bad to someone outside
of our relationship but, for the most part, neither of
us takes it seriously enough to be truly offended by
it.  Yes, at times it creates misunderstanding, just
like it does for Ron and Hermione but the underlying
fact is that my husband and I are perfect for each
other because he tempers my extreme seriousness with a
more laid-back and spontaneous personality.  This is
why I think Ron and Hermione will be perfect for one
another.  Five years of very happy marriage tells me
that two people with these personalities can do very
well together.  :)

I would like to further parallel the P&P idea by
pointing out that Hermione seemingly has another
suitor: Krum, just as Elizabeth appears to have found
a partner in Wickham.  Now, I'm not necessarily
suggesting that Krum is going to turn out to be a man
of extremely loose morals and questionable value as
Wickham did but it's possible, isn't it?  Furthermore,
Ron has a violent dislike of Krum, just as Darcy had a
violent dislike of Wickham.  True, Ron's dislike is
mostly founded on jealousy and while Wickham's
attempted abduction of Darcy's sister is certainly
reason enough to dislike him, I'm sure that Darcy was
also wildly jealous of what he saw developing between
Wickham and Elizabeth.

Now, I get the feeling that Heidi will want to point
out to me the dissimilarities between P&P and what
I've posted here and that's fine.  What I would like
to point out, though, is that one book doesn't have to
be *exactly* like another for there to be viable
comparisons made between the two.  Any fan of "Bridget
Jones's Diary" knows that Helen Fielding has
blantantly stated that Bridget Jones is pretty much
P&P retold (right down to Colin Firth starring as
Darcy in movie versions of both) but there are *many*
differences between that book and P&P.  Being that
Rowling is such a fan of Jane Austen, I think it
entirely possible that she is drawing from Austen and
putting her own spin on it, just as Fielding did.

Lilac said:

> Others have compared _Emma_ to H/G, with Harry being
> like Emma (i.e. clueless), and Ginny being Mr.
> Knightly in these ways:
> 
> 1. Emma and Knightly are related by marriage, so you
> never even consider Knightly as a possible love
> interest.  Harry is almost related to Ginny in that
> she is his best friend's little sister.
> 
> 2. Emma and Knightly have a big age difference...He
> is 16 years older, IIRC.  Another reason to not
> consider Knightly.  JKR has made Ginny seem young
> for her age, which makes us really not consider her
> with Harry as many feel she is too young, when in
> fact she is only a year younger chronologically (it
> could possibly be less, depending on her birthday).
> 
> 3. JKR has said in this interview: 
> http://www.readersdigest.co.uk/magazine/Rowling3.htm
> 
>  "I love a good whodunnit and my passion is plot
> construction. Readers loved to be tricked, but not
> conned," Rowling says, warming to her theme. ***"The
> best twist ever in literature is in Jane Austen's
> Emma. To me she is the target of perfection at which
> we shoot in vain."***
> 
> Now, this twist could be an argument for H/H, as
> their ship does have more subtextual evidence at
> this point in time.  But I like to believe that JKR
> is going to pull a "Darcy" with R/H and a "Knightly"
> with H/G. 

To which Heidi replied:

> 
> In terms of the "Knightly/Emma" comparison to Harry
> and Ginny, again, I don't see it, for the specific 
> reason that for much, nay ninety percent of the 
> story, neither Emma nor Mr Knightly seem to have 
> much interest in each other as other than familial-
> friends, whereas it's quite clear from the HP books 
> that Ginny's interests towards Harry have been quite
> different from familial-friends. Now, it's possible
> that in subsequent books, Harry and Ginny will 
> develop and interact pursuant to a level of
> familiarity that does not exist in canon at this
> point - but is certainly not barred by canon to 
> date. However, to say that it *will* happen is, 
> imho, wishful thinking (i.e. it might come true, but

> it has no basis in any line or phrase of canon at 
> all). 

Okay, maybe I'm misinterpreting here, but it sounds to
me like you're saying Lilac's points aren't applicable
to HP because it's clear that Ginny has a crush on
Harry?  I disagree with that.  I thought Lilac drew
some excellent parallels between the two.  I'd never
seen things that way myself but after reading her post
I really think that train of thought is on to
something.  Besides, if you go back and read Emma
after you know what happens, it's actually quite clear
that Knightley is taking more of an interest in Emma
than what is seen on first read.  Austen's language is
subtle enough that this is something that may not be
picked up on the first time around but becomes obvious
with subsequent reads.  Why does it matter if Ginny is
blatantly showing her interest while Knightley is
subtly showing his?  

Heidi went on to say:

> 
> But in terms of characterisation, Draco's is so much
> closer to Darcy's than Ron is that it makes me feel 
> that to compare any character other than Draco to 
> Darcy is simply superficial and looks in the
opposite
> direction from characterisation to... Hmmm. 
> Now, I am not saying that Draco, where he is now in
> canon, is identical to Darcy in P&P. For one thing, 
> Draco, as we've met him in canon, is close to two 
> decades younger Draco, with a living father who has 
> the ability to keep controls over his life - clearly
> Draco (or, to be precise, Hermione or Draco) would 
> have to go through a sea change before finding the 
> other to be intriguing on a romantic level. 
> 

Okay, wait, I have to call you out on something here. 
Throughout your post you've been saying that Lilac's
points don't apply because there are too many
differences between HP and Austen yet here you are
saying that maybe Draco isn't quite like Darcy but the
comparison can still be made.  :)

Finally, I have to firmly state that I object to any
comparison of Draco and Darcy.  Aside from the fact
that they're both phenominally rich and live on huge
estates, I see no similarities between Draco and
Darcy.  Darcy's pride is based on the idea that he is
socially superior to other.  Draco's is based on the
idea that he's racially superior to others.  At no
time does Darcy imply that Elizabeth and her family
should be killed because their blood isn't pure. 
Moreover, Draco and his family treat their servants
like dirt while when Elizabeth visits Pemberley, she
finds that his servants can't say enough nice things
about him.  And anyway, isn't Ron's protectiveness of
his sister far more Darcy-like than Draco's extremely
distasteful comment after Cedric Diggory's death?  If
Draco is like anyone in P&P, it's Lady Catherine. 
They both seem to harbor the the same nasty prejudice
and disdain for those who are "beneath" them.

~Nicole, who'd rather sit here and continue to debate
HP and Austen than get ready for work!

=====
*****************************************************************
      "You haven't got a letter on yours," George observed.  
        "I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name.  
  But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." 

      Chapter 12, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"
*****************************************************************

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