More Ginny, Hermione and the Curse of Mary Sue (Was: self-confident Hermione?)

Wed Feb 19 02:54:02 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 52472

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at e...> wrote:
>
> For some reason Hermione seems to have turned into an almost
> perfect goddess in HP fandom.
> She can do no wrong and is loved by all the males around
> her.

It's not just in this fandom. There are certain female characters who 
tend to get adopted en masse by female fans. Kate Bolin over at 
Dymphna.net dubbed the phenomenon 'The Curse of the Willow Sue' and 
has some interesting stats and analysis to back up her ideas:
http://www.dymphna.net/research/toc.html

In HP fanon, Ginny gets Mary Sue-ed a fair amount as well, but I'd 
argue that it isn't anywhere near the level of Hermione. And, 
interestingly, in most "Ginny Sue" stories, Hermione is still smart 
and pretty and gets an all-around positive portrayal. In a whole lot 
of fan works featuring a 'perfected' Hermione, Ginny is characterized 
as weak and baby-ish and generally an idiot. Cho doesn't fair 
particularly well in those stories either: usually she's either 
ignored totally or an Evil Wench. I'm not sure why that trope has 
developed that way, but it's an observable trend, IMO.

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 <foxmoth at q...>" 
<foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> In a way, the secret of Ginny's importance is like the Chamber of 
> Secrets itself. If you  interpret the secret language of symbol and 
> metaphor, and hunt for clues in the structure of the story, then 
> you can understand the voice within the walls and the meaning 
> will be revealed. Those who accept only  "solid, believable, 
> verifiable fact"  will hunt in vain, and may perhaps declare, in 
> aggravated tones, that it does not exist. <g>

I just have to think that even in a kids' book, that stuff is there 
for a reason. Otherwise, why not have Percy be the one with the magic 
diary? Or Colin Creevy? Or Neville? We wouldn't have suspected any of 
them either. (All right, Percy probably wouldn't have been 
susceptible to the diary, and he winds up as the proud owner of the 
Red Herring as it is. Colin and Neville are equally likely to have 
been victims, though.) But instead it's Ginny, who is female. There's 
a sexual element to her interaction with Tom, and her crush on Harry 
and her possible resemblance to Lily. Put all those things together 
down in the dark, secret nether-regions of a creepy, gothic castle 
and... well, there you have it. ^_^

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> I do, however, see Hermione in Book 4 as mature for her age, and 
can be
> strong willed and independent, and simultaneously, sensitive about
> certain things, hence, the crying she does throughout all four 
books.

> That crying, IMHO, is not a sign of immaturity

I brought up the instances of Hermione crying not as evidence that 
*she's* immature, but to show that a character generally considered 
mature by most readers cries in the text. And that it's in-character, 
in my opinion, for a teenage girl to cry.

One of the most popular arguments for "Why Ginny is a Waste of Space" 
is that she's a crybaby: as evidenced by the fact that she cries when 
she wakes up down in the Chamber of Secrets. Now, I'll concede that 
Hermione *is* more mature than Ginny in a lot of ways, but at the 
same time no one judges Hermione for crying about things that are far 
less serious than, say, attempted murder and possession by an evil 
entity.

> for Hermione, it's not an absolute. She can be strong willed and/or
> independent about things that necessitate logic or are not personal 
to
> her, or which are academic arguments. However, we've seen her will 
wane
> on occasion, on things that matter a lot to her, like Harry's 
safety, or
> his and Ron's friendship, or the fate of Buckbeack. She's not 
precisely
> weak-willed on those subjects, but her emotions come into play more 
than
> her strength of will does. 
>

And, actually, that's one of the ways I'd argue that she needs to 
mature. She's very sensitive about things that are important to her 
and people close to her. But she's very impatient and insensitive 
toward *other* people and *their* problems. For instance, her 
attitude toward Lavender when her pet rabbit dies. Again, that's not 
meant as an indictment of Hermione, because fourteen year olds are 
generally selfish and have trouble seeing beyond the things that 
affect them personally and immediately. It's good characterization 
because it's true to life, but I would also say that it points to 
some of the maturing she needs to do.

--Julie