Anatomy of a Rift (Part 1 of 2) LONG

[naamagatus <naama_gat@hotmail.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 52516


Shauna:

> Has 
> Harry ever lied to Ron before? Does Ron know of Harry lying to 
>others in similar cirucumstances? 

I don't know exactly what constitues similar circumstances, but 
Ron knows that Harry is capable of lying. He knows that Harry 
lied to the Dursleys about Sirius. He knows that Harry is willing 
to break rules to do what he wants. Of course, those are broken 
rules, not personal lies. But the possibility is there.

Me:

Well, similar circumstances would be where Harry is lying to someone 
who has earned his trust in order to cover up a breach of that trust. 
Harry has never done that, and Ron knows it. 

Shauna:

> > > Ron's reaction as you describe it does not agree with 
inherent  human  tendencies. People have high resistance to painful 
facts. 
We go to great lengths, expend large amounts of mental energy to 
not accept painful facts, even when they are fairly well 
substantiated. 
Ron, on the other hand, *chooses* to believe something that 
>>>causes him pain. It just doesn't make sense.

Many people do react this way. They're called optimists. Other 
people react the opposite way. They're called pessimists. I 
know of plenty of people who assume the worst so that they can't 
get any more hurt. Ron has shown this tendency. He 
automatically assumes Scabbers is dead in the PoA cat/rat fight. 
I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head, but the 
possibility, at least, is there. 


Naama:

You make a good point that there are people who are inclined to 
assume the worst. However, I don't think that Ron is that type of 
person. About Scabber. He didn't "assume" that Scabbers was dead in 
PoA, he came to the most reasonble conclusion that he could, based on 
the evidence he found. Harry was just as convinced as he was that 
Crookshanks had killed him. Other than that, my impression of Ron is 
that he is basically a cheerful, optimistic person. He's not morbid, 
he hasn't shown any tendency to cherish imagined insults. Of the 
three, he has always seemed to me the most light hearted and easy 
going. So I still think that it would be very odd for him to 
disbelieve Harry in order, so to speak, to feel slighted. 


Shauna:

<snip>

Hagrid ~ The night of the choosing ceremony, the Trio visit 
Hagrid at his hut. They spend a great deal of time there 
"speculating which of the entrants were likely to be selected as 
champions" (p.265). Given that, and the fact that Dumbledore 
likely spoke to Hagrid concerning Moody's sinister suggestions 
(or perhaps Madame Maxine complained about it), Hagrid would 
be much more likely to believe Harry. So he is both inclined to 
believe Harry, and has an alternate explanation.

Me:

But surely Ron would have heard more than enough from Hermione about 
alternate explanations? We know that Hermione was very very worried 
about Harry. Much more worried than Harry was, in fact. She knows all 
about Moody's suggestions because Harry told her. She would have 
passed it on to Ron. He also should know that Dumbledore believes 
Harry (through Hermione and/or Hagrid). Since Ron would have all the 
information that Hagrid has, he should be just as inclined to believe 
Harry as Hagrid was.

Shauna:

Dumbledore ~ He is both intelligent and a good judge of 
character. He doubts Harry enough to ask him whether he tried 
to get his name put in the goblet, but given all the available 
information and seeing that Harry was telling the truth, he was 
both inclined to believe Harry, and had an alternative explanation.

Hermione ~ So far as she knows, Harry had no intention or real 
interest in putting his name in the Goblet. Therefore, she sees 
no motive for Harry to have done so. Furthermore, when Harry's 
name is drawn from the goblet she is better able to register his 
own shock, instead of having to deal with her own. (Yes, she is 
surprised, but she is not overwhelmed by disapointment, 
betrayal, etc.) Given that evidence, she has both the inclination 
to believe Harry, as well as the alternative explanation Harry gave 
her. (Just as a side note, it is possible that Hermione had 
doubts which, upon later deciding they were baseless, she 
decided to conceal from Harry.)

Ron ~ As others have mentioned, Ron has spent the past 
several days in a climate where Harry has expressed both an 
interest (or at least a passive agreement to Ron's interest) in 
being the Hogwarts champion. Because he wants to do it so 
badly, he has difficulty believing other's wouldn't want to. He and 
Harry even discuss how they would do it. So, when Harry's 
name is drawn out of the Goblet, he's concentrating on his own 
emotions: shock, disappointment, betrayal, etc., instead of really 
seeing how surprised Harry is. Furthermore, he is given 
evidence that Harry is actually enjoying being the Champion, 
whereas Harry offers *nothing* to support his assertions.

Me:

I think that Ron's intimate knowledge of Harry should be more than 
enough to enable him to see "that Harry was telling the truth." As 
for Hermione - I don't see why you think that she "sees 
no motive for Harry to have done so". Surely she was aware of the 
whole Tournament climate. Everybody was. They were all excited about 
it, and I think it was pretty much a given that anybody who could 
would have loved to enter the Tournament. "Why should `e 
complain" ... We `ave all been `oping to be chosen for weeks and 
weeks! ... Zis is a chance many would die for!" This attitude I 
assume was the prevlanet one, and Hermione would be just as familiar 
with it as Ron. 
I like your point,though that Ron would find it difficult to believe 
that anyone would choose not to be a champion. He suspects Harry 
because he projects on him his own desire to participate in the 
Tournament. Nice. 
But  ... if Ron is really so desirous of being a champion wouldn't it 
make him particularly susceptible to jealousy when Harry gets it? Try 
to put yourself in his shoes: would your deep, gut emotional reaction 
be betrayal - or envy? The more I think about this, the more I feel 
that even if Ron did think at first that Harry had done this behind 
his back, his overwhelming emotion would still be jealousy. 
I can also understand why it took the Tournament to spark such an 
outflare of jealousy. It provides both a chance at glory and at 
riches. We know that Ron's deepest desire is glory (from the Mirror 
of Erised). We also know that he is really sick of being poor (it's 
underlined in GoF). So to see this chance given to *Harry* - who has 
more than enough of both - is understandably too much to take. 


Shauna:

<snip>

> Ron has always been shown as at least as sensitive of Harry's 
> feelings and moods as Hermione. But in this case, strangely, 
>he is quite blind to Harry's ongoing stress and misery? Harry has to 
>throw something at him to make him aware that something isn't 
>right? 

Because Harry is always so transparent about his emotions. He 
broadcasts them to anyone and everyone, so that even a person 
who isn't speaking to him will understand the depths of his 
torment.


Me:

Maybe I'm relying here on my own experience. People I know really 
well I can simply see their emotions written on their face (I'm 
talking major moods, not every thought and sensation of course). 
Although Harry is certainly self-contained, Ron always seems to get 
him pretty well. Harry's shock and dismay and later his anger at Ron, 
his stress and misery should have been fairly easy for Ron to spot. 

<snip>


Naama