[HPforGrownups] Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)

[Maria Kirilenko]

No: HPFGUIDX 49597


 Pippin:
DeathEater!Lupin is conjecture, but perfidious Lupin is beyond 
all doubt.  He betrayed Dumbledore's trust while he was at 
Hogwarts the first time, and then betrayed Harry and 
Dumbledore both by keeping back what he knew about Black. 
Harry does not yet  realize how dire a thing this was, but Lupin 
surely must. If he is not an evil man then he is beyond doubt a 
weak and treacherous one. 

We can't have it both ways. If Lupin was sincere when he asked 
to be forgiven for thinking that Sirius was the spy, if he was 
sincere when he said that he convinced himself that Sirius was 
using Dark Arts he had learned from Voldemort to enter the 
castle, then Lupin did *not* believe there was some chance that 
Sirius was an innocent man. He did not doubt that Sirius was 
capable of murder and terrorism. He knew about Pettigrew and 
the twelve Muggles. He also knew already what the readers do 
not learn first-hand until the opening chapters of GoF: the Death 
Eaters were terrorists who had no regard at all for innocent lives, 
and would kill and torture for sport.  



 

Maria replies:

 

DE Lupin is conjecture, I’m glad we agree with this. But calling him perfidious is much too strong. Yes, Lupin was weak and selfish in this matter, as he himself acknowledged.  

 

Furthermore, his weakness and selfishness - his flaws, seem to me to be further proof of his non-evilness. There’s no such thing as an ideal person, everyone has drawbacks and weak spots. Remus happens to have a big one, but he’s only partly to blame. 

 

Look at it this way: from early childhood Remus Lupin was taught the hard way not to trust people easily, nor to confide in them. He was incredibly happy to have any friends and was afraid to lose them. Lupin is a werewolf, and is for this reason distrusted by the whole WW. As a boy, he thinks it wonderful to be trusted for a change, and by such a prominent figure as Dumbledore. When he broke Dumbledore’s trust and started roaming Hogwarts grounds every full moon with his friends of course he feared to tell him about it! Then, when he grew up and left the greenhouse environment of the school it became even harder for him, he encountered distrust all the time. It became even more important for him to retain Dumbledore’s good opinion. 

 

So, not telling DD that Sirius was an Animagi – the only thing, really, that Lupin should have told him – was a sign of weakness, not treachery, and there’s a big step from that to evilness. 

 

I think that Lupin in one of JKR’s best creations yet. He is a real person, who is both strong (for it takes an incredibly strong person to bear such a burden as werewolfishness) and weak, ruthless and kind, capable of both love and hate, who has known both suffering and happiness, both of which influenced his character in good and bad ways. BTW, I’m sure we’ll find many faults with Sirius before long.

 

Lupin’s behavior was a terrible mistake – but people make mistakes. Hasn’t Sirius made a mistake when he convinced James to make Peter the Secret-Keeper? I once made a suggestion that Sirius not only suspected Lupin of being a spy, he also made James suspect Lupin, and I think that’s why Sirius is both Harry’s godfather and best man at Lily & James’ wedding. Was that not a terrible mistake as well? It certainly led to a worse end than Lupin’s mistake. 

 

Making a mistake, even if it is a dire one, does not mean that one is a bad and untrustworthy person. But if you learn from your mistakes, you become a better person. Lupin learned a severe lesson in PoA, and I don’t doubt for one minute that he drew conclusions from it. 

As for Lupin not saying in his last conversation with Harry that his selfishness could have killed all of them etc., well, he is the type of person IMO who broods over things painful to him and never gets them out of his system. He is very reserved then, much more reserved than he ever was – because he is mentally punishing himself. (“Harry had the impression that Lupin wanted to leave as quickly as possible.”) I think that he feels he doesn’t deserve whatever good things Harry or Dumbledore might say or did say to him – “Yes, Remus, you made a mistake, but don’t judge yourself too harshly,” “You're the best Defense Against the Dark Arts- teacher we've ever had!” But these are just my ideas – stuff that has just popped into my head.  
One of Pippin’s strongest arguments against Lupin:

They were [insert name of real-life terrorist gang] with wands.  If 
you knew one of them was trying to break into your workplace, 
would you keep back information that could protect a thousand 
innocent lives to save your own skin? Lupin chose. He 
committed an act of breathtaking selfishness,  and not all the 
Dementor-fighting lessons in the world can make up for it, IMO. 
Once you realize what the Death Eaters are, once you admit that 
Lupin thought Sirius was one of them,  can there be an excuse 
for what Lupin did?

 

Maria:

The way you put this almost made me cry, really it did. And as I couldn’t write a response to it myself, I’ll just say that I take Snuffles’ position on this question – 

 

Snuffles wrote: 

I just believe that the complexities of the Marauders' relationships made for a most difficult choice. Did Lupin make the correct one? Well, I tend to think in the end, his poor choices- whether selfish or out of some sort of loyalty to his friends- made for a better outcome. Were Lupin to have told Dumbledore about Sirius's dog form - black shaggy dog with ... maarkings.- Dumbledore would have had to inform the MoM, Sirius would most likely have been discovered and would have had the Dementor's Kiss administered to him immediately without question. No one would have ever learnt the truth. Harry would have never known Sirius was his Godfather or of his innocence.





Maria said:
>>I found it rather hard to follow this thought, but I understood it 
<snip my wrong interpretation of Pippin’s theory>

Er, no. Harry's life was unquestionably in danger from 
Fake!Moody at the end of GoF, and Dumbledore unquestionably 
saved it. However, no life debt has been acknowledged. So I 
think an element of jeopardy to the rescuer has to be there. I 
think the rescuer has to put him/herself in harm's way. 

I don't think there would be a life debt unless either Sirius or 
Lupin could conceivably have killed *Harry*  to get at Pettigrew. 
As we read PoA for the first time, it seems that Sirius might do 
this, but in light of everything we know now, I can't see Sirius 
killing Harry in cold blood and I don't think Dumbledore would 
believe it of him either. That would have to mean that 
Dumbledore thought Lupin might do it. 

 

Maria replies:

 

Thanks for clarifying what you said earlier. I find your theory on how a life-debt can be created interesting, but I want to offer another one. 

 

IMO a life-debt is created when the rescuer shows extraordinary unselfishness and generosity when saving another persons life when it would have been only too easy to stand back and let events take their course. Harry shows it when he spares the “murdering traitor” responsible for the death of his parents – great generosity IMO, when James’ friends who loved James even more than Harry and felt his death more acutely (because they actually knew him) were ready to kill Peter.  

 

When Dumbledore saves Harry’s life in GoF he does not have to solve any moral dilemma of this kind. He has no reasons *not* to save Harry’s life, moreover, it’s his duty. 

 

It’s just as well founded by canon as yours, Pippin (i.e. not at all <grin>). But by this theory Lupin doesn’t have to be evil and capable of murdering Harry in order for a life-debt to be created.


Maria:
>>But I think that what JKR is trying to do with Lupin
is to show how prejudiced people are – how such a nice, sweet, 
kind, smart <snip> person is shunned
because of what he is for a few hours every month. If he turned 
out to be a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter and we all found out 
that he'd been pretending all the while, it would have been 
against JKR's philosophy, no matter what Lupin's choices were 
or were not. <<

Pippin:

Would it be against JKR's philosophy to show that a person who 
was once nice, sweet, smart and kind is capable of choosing to 
become evil?  If evil is truly a choice, then even nice, sweet, 
smart, kind people may sometimes choose it.



Maria replies:

No, it’s not against her philosophy, but IMHO there are many examples of nice, smart (or potentially nice, as you like it) turned evil – Crouch Jr., Voldemort himself, Quirrell, Peter Pettigrew, and, I’m sure, many DE’s. IMO all of them reflect this aspect of her philosophy. Making Lupin reflect it too is going overboard. I stick to what I said earlier.    


Maria:
>And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn't 
really nice<



Pippin:
Oh, he's nice to Neville. Gives him that Herbology book. Harry 
even thinks it's something Lupin might have done.



Maria replies:

Lupin isn’t only nice to Neville – he is nice to everybody and, moreover, his niceness shows in almost everything he does or says (except when talking about Snape or in the Shrieking Shack, but then he’s only human <g>). Moody is only nice to Neville, and he has a reason to be “nice.” But I’ll agree that being/acting nice is not an indicator or anything (<coughSnapecough>).

Pippin:
Harry's gut failed to warn him about Quirrell, Lockhart, Riddle, 
Scabbers, or Fake!Moody. I don't think, despite his boast to 
Draco about knowing who the wrong sort are, that his track 
record is very good. 



Maria replies:

OK, Harry is trusting; you’ve made your point and I withdraw this argument <bows>. It wasn’t really an argument anyway. I’ll only add that he did realize that Lockhart was a fraud, and I don’t really see how *anyone* can suspect a *rat* of being evil. Besides, how could Harry suspect Quirrell when he had such meet food to feed his suspicions as Snape? <g>

BTW, thanks to Pippin for pointing out the werewolf cub thing in the chat! I just realized that I’ve seen that chat before, but my memory failed me again, so thank you for clearing up the matter.

And as we’re not supposed to post separate “I agree” posts, I’d like to seize the opportunity and say that I completely agree with Snuffles’ and Marina’s posts on this subject – you say it so much better than I do! Also, I'm glad that the amount of people coming to Lupin's defense steadily increases - maybe we can talk Pippin out of Evil!Lupin as she asks <grin>.

Regards,

Maria



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