Hagrid the Gamekeeper AND Re: I Don't See a Problem with Ogg

[bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50061


> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Okay, nobody else is posting so, let me ask a few question about 
> OGG - the GroundKeeper as his
> mention in the book relates to Arther and Molly's age. 
> 
> Frankly, I never saw any controversy here. Although, the Lexicon 
> has it built up to the point where they speculate there are Two 
> Timelines running.
> 
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/puzzles2.html
> 
> To read the article, select the above ling and go to the subject 
> heading "When did Arthur and Molly Weasley attend Hogwarts?"
> 
> A brief quote from the article-
> " ...Molly Weasley fondly recalls a man named Ogg being the
> groundskeeper when she went to Hogwarts. Now she's older than 
> Sirius and Lupin, granted, but not so much older that she would 
> have gone to Hogwarts before Hagrid and Tom Riddle, which was 
> fifty years ago. ..."

No, no, no, no, NO!
This is one of the rare occasions where the Lexicon has just plain 
got it wrong. The Lexicon's argument that 'After Hagrid was 
expelled, however, he was given the groundskeeper position.' is 
*not* what the book says. What is said in CoS is 
[Dumbledore]...persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and *train* him as 
gamekeeper.' [CoS UK paperback, p.230, Ch.17]

13 (or 14) year old boys do not get given the job of 
Gamekeeper/Groundskeeper for a place as big as Hogwarts. They 
wouldn't know where to start! Training as a gamekeeper/groundskeeper 
in the Muggle world usually takes several years. The usual 
progression is apprentice/trainee, then under keeper, then 
gamekeeper.

If you want to see a web page about careers in UK gamekeeping, try
http://www.sparsholt.ac.uk/gwcareers.htm


For example; the National Diploma in Game and Wildlife Management is 
a full time academic course of two years. Students are advised to 
have had *at least* one year's practical experience before taking 
the course. They also often 'sandwich' the course; taking one year 
academics, a one year internship, and then the final year academics. 

It's probably the closest muggle equivalent to the type of training 
Hagrid would need, and if you add up the years required, you see 
that a gamekeeper will have had four years training before he/she 
can even *think* about getting beyond assistant. And that's when 
they've left school at sixteen, which Hagrid didn't. Hagrid would 
probably have needed extra tuition in things like Care of Magical 
Creatures to bring him up to the right level.

Hagrid's remit includes the Forbidden Forest and it's assorted 
magical creatures, as well as the 'maintained' grounds of Hogwarts. 
He'd need to know: - Pest and predator control, Estate skills, 
Habitat conservation,  Fishery or Water management (for the lake and 
its Giant Squid, assorted Merpeople ...), Trees, Woods & Forbidden 
Forests management, plus the Care of Magical Creatures, etc, etc, 
etc..

Grrr...

Hagrid does not have a soft, easy job that he could have just walked 
into at 13. He has a highly skilled job that probably required as 
many years of training as staying on at school would have done. 


Anyway, moving on to the 'Molly and Arthur's ages' problem:
Bboy:
> I don't see any reason to think that Arther and Molly couldn't have
> been in their Senior year of school or perhaps just out of school 
> when Hagrid was expelled. 

>Kaesa:
Couldn't Ogg have 
> been still training him when they went to school?

Pip:
I would, like Kaesa, think Hagrid was still being trained. I'd 
strain to believe that Hagrid could have become *the* 
Gamekeeper/Groundskeeper before he was 20, which would normally be 
the absolute minimum. This would have given him seven years 
training/experience, reasonable enough.

Given that Hagrid was expelled 52 years (ish) before Molly 
reminisces about Ogg, this means Ogg was *likely* to have been 
Gamekeeper/Groundskeeper 45 years ago (and very likely longer; 20 
would be young for a sole gamekeeper position). 

The line in GoF reads: 
[Molly] 'reminisced at length about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a 
man called Ogg'.

So Molly could well have been at school during the 'switchover' 
period, where Hagrid replaced Ogg as gamekeeper. Certainly she knows 
Ogg is the gamekeeper *before* Hagrid.


If you assume Hagrid replaced Ogg at 20, when Molly was in her 7th 
year, then Molly would be 17/18 + 45 or 62, 63 in GoF.

Given that her youngest child is 13, that would be a perfectly 
reasonable age; she'd have had Ginny at 50. Muggles have been known 
to have kids at 50; I doubt a longer living witch would have major 
problems.

The only problem with this scenario is that Molly and Arthur *would* 
have been at school with Tom Riddle, and there's nothing in canon 
that implies that.

What is more likely is a) Hagrid took over the gamekeepers position 
when he was older than 20 (entirely reasonable) or b) the switchover 
from Ogg to Hagrid took place when Molly was in a lower year than 
the 7th, say the 3rd. Ogg may have been such a 'character' that 
anyone then at Hogwarts remembers him vividly.


If Molly entered school the year *after* Tom Riddle graduated, she'd 
have never met Riddle, but the gamekeeper would still have been Ogg, 
as Hagrid would still be only two years or so into his training.

Pip!Squeak