SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF

[anguaorc <fausts@attglobal.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50271

This is a response to Ebony's post #50156 entitled "All Smoke
and No 
Fire:  The Trouble With R/H in GoF and Beyond."  I will also post
it 
in the FictionAlley forum where Ebony's original essay was posted
(or 
rather, it's successor thread --
http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=24018).  

All sane, normal people -- please be warned that this is a detailed 
point-by-point response to Ebony's very long post, in the manner that 
has made the FictionAlley R/H vs. H/H Debate Thread a hissing and a 
byword everywhere.

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony <selah_1977 at y...>" 
<selah_1977 at y...> wrote:
> THE UNEXPECTED TASK
> 
> *********************
> "We should get a move on, you know . . . ask someone.  He's
> right.  
> We don't want to end up with a pair of trolls."
> 
> Hermione let out a sputter of indignation.
> 
> "A pair of... what, excuse me?"
> 
> "Well - you know," said Ron, shrugging.  "I'd rather go alone than 
> with - with Eloise Midgen, say."
> 
> "Her acne's loads better lately - and she's really nice!"
> 
> "Her nose is off-center," said Ron.
> 
> "Oh I see," Hermione said, bristling.  "So basically, you're going 
to 
> take the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's 
completely 
> horrible?"
> 
> "Er - yeah, that sounds about right," said Ron.  
> 
> "I'm going to bed," Hermione snapped, and she swept off toward
the 
> girls' staircase without another word.  (GoF, UK paper, p. 344) 
> *****************
> 
> The following is quoted from HP4GUer Linda McCabe with her express 
> written permission:
> 
> "Trolls.  You know the twelve foot mountain troll that almost
> killed 
> Hermione back in book 1?  The nasty, smelly, foul creature who 
> terrorized her.  Ron didn't even consider asking Hermione, he was 
> concerned about not having to go out with a troll!  Hermione wasn't 
> even on his radar screen even though she was supposedly his other 
> best friend.  I'd be mighty insulted by that exchange.  He 
compounded 
> his insult by describing Eloise Midgen in very uncomplimentary 
terms -
>  someone who Hermione thinks is "really nice."  Looks are more 
> important to him than anything else.  And females, especially
> bookish females can feel very insecure about their own looks.  That
> conversation wouldn't endear him to me in the least."
> 
> I couldn't have said it any better myself.  I also noticed that
> this 
> is a bit before Ron's epiphany about Hermione, that "you are
> a 
> girl."  He makes no overt overtures of interest towards Hermione
> at 
> or up to this point.  I see no Hepburn/Tracy in miniature there.  I 
> see Ron being not very nice, and Hermione taking offense.
> 
> Sometimes a rose is a rose.
> 
> And sometimes, you just have to call a spade a spade.

I will agree with Linda and Ebony thus far – it is a very rare
woman 
who would be attracted by such behavior.  No R/H shipper would 
argue, "See how charming Ron is?  No wonder Hermione likes
him!"  Not 
at all.  Our attention is caught by something else entirely.  We 
notice how quickly Hermione rises to Ron's bait here.  She has
sat 
silently studying her potions notes through Fred and George trying to 
borrow Pigwidgeon, Fred and George discouraging Ron's questions
with 
insults, and Fred publicly asking Angelina for a date.  She is not 
shown responding at all, not looking up from her work – nothing. 
And 
yet, when Ron says:

****
"We *should* get a move on, you know
 ask someone.  He's
right.  We 
don't want to end up with a pair of trolls."
****

Hermione's attention is immediately engaged, so engaged that
Ron's 
wrong answer sends her out of the room in indignation.  Why?  I say
– 
because she was possibly hoping Ron would ask her (she may or may not 
have already been asked by Krum at this point).  This is not the 
occasion for Hermione to *start* being interested in Ron; this is the 
occasion for Hermione's already emerging interest in Ron to
receive a 
sharp slap across the face.  This is the kind of misunderstanding and 
setback that all good humorous romance stories have.

Note, too, that Hermione betrays no interest in or curiousity about 
what kind of girls HARRY might want to ask to the ball – even
though 
Harry is sitting right there, and Ron's "we" includes him.  

> On to one of the most pivotal scenes in this chapter
 Ron's
> epiphany.
> 
> **************
> Entering the common room, Harry looked around, and to his surprise 
he 
> saw Ron sitting ashen-faced in a distant corner.  Ginny was sitting 
> with him, talking to him in what seemed to be a low, soothing voice.
> 
> "What's up, Ron?" said Harry, joining them.
> 
> Ron looked up at Harry, a sort of blind horror in his face.
> 
> "Why did I do it?" he said wildly.  "I don't know what made me do 
it!
> 
> "What?" said Harry.
> 
> "He - er - just asked Fleur Delacour to go to the ball with him," 
> said Ginny.  She looked as though she was fighting back a smile, 
but 
> she kept patting Ron's arm sympathetically.
> 
> "You what?' said Harry.
> 
> "I don't know what made me do it!"  Ron gasped again.  "What was I 
> playing at? There were people - all around - I've gone mad - 
everyone 
> watching!  I was just walking past her in the entrance hall - she 
was 
> standing there talking to Diggory - and it sort of came over me - 
and 
> I asked her!"
> 
> Ron moaned and put his face in his hands.  He kept talking, though 
> the words were barely distinguishable.
> 
> "She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something.  Didn't even 
> answer.  And then - I dunno - I just sort of came to my senses and 
> ran for it."
> 
> "She's part veela," said Harry.  "You were right - her grandmother 
> was one.  It wasn't your fault, I bet you just walked past when she 
> was turning on the old charm for Diggory and got a blast of it - 
but 
> she was wasting her time.  He's going with Cho Chang."
> 
> Ron looked up.
> 
> "I asked her to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she 
told 
> me."
> 
> Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling.  (GoF, UK paper, p. 347-348) 
> ********************
> 
> Lots and lots going on here.  We see Harry's preoccupation with
> his 
> rejection by Cho, completely one-sided H/G (although Gin seems to 
be 
> handling it okay, but then again, am not here to debate the 
demerits 
> or lack thereof in H/G), and a Ron who is totally upset by his 
> rejection by Fleur.  
> 
> Ron who called poor Eloise Midgen a "troll", with one glance
> from a 
> pretty girl, feels quite a bit like a sea-slug.  He is
> "ashen-faced", 
> there is a sort of "blind horror in his face", and he moans.  
> Obviously not a happy camper.  Upon first read, I felt rather sorry 
> for him.  It couldn't have been pleasant to go through all that
> in 
> public.
> 
> One would hope this would reform the laddie
 that after
rejection
> by 
> Fleur, he would learn to be a bit nicer when it came to issues like 
> this.  However, the reason why I quoted the scene above was as a 
> pretext for the crucial scene that is oft-quoted by the good ship.  

I think it is clear that Ron is not distraught because of Fleur 
turning him down (which, technically, she hasn't – he simply
"ran for 
it"), but because he can't believe he has made such a public
idiot of 
himself ("everyone watching!").  
 
> ******************
> "This is mad," said Ron.  "We're the only ones left who haven't got 
> anyone - well, except Neville.  Hey - guess who he asked?  
Hermione!"
> 
> "What?" said Harry, completely distracted by this startling news.
> 
> "Yeah, I know!"  said Ron, some of the color coming back into his 
> face as he started to laugh.  "He told me after Potions!  Said 
she's 
> always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff- but 
she 
> told him she was already going with someone.  Ha!  As if!  She just 
> didn't want to go with Neville ... I mean, who would?"
> 
> "Don't!" said Ginny, annoyed. "Don't laugh -"
> 
> Just then Hermione climbed in through the portrait hole.
> 
> "Why weren't you two at dinner?"  she said, coming over to join 
them.
> 
> "Because - oh shut up laughing, you two - because they've both just 
> been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!"  said Ginny.
> 
> That shut Harry and Ron up.
> 
> "Thanks a bunch, Ginny," said Ron sourly.
> 
> "All the good-looking ones taken, Ron?"  said Hermione 
> loftily.  "Eloise Midgen starting to look quite pretty now, is 
she?  
> Well, I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll have you."
> 
> But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a 
> whole new light.
> "Hermione, Neville's right - you are a girl. . . ."
> 
> "Oh well spotted," she said acidly.
> 
> "Well - you can come with one of us!"
> 
> "No, I can't," snapped Hermione.
> 
> "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going 
to 
> look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has . . ."
> 
> "I can't come with you," said Hermione, now blushing, "because I'm 
> already going with someone."
> 
> "No, you're not!"  said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of 
> Neville!"
> 
> "Oh did I?" said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously.  "Just 
> because it's taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no 
> one else has spotted I'm a girl!"
> 
> Ron stared at her. Then he grinned again."Okay, okay, we know 
you're 
> a girl," he said.  "That do?  Will you come now?"
> 
> "I've already told you!"  Hermione said very angrily.  "I'm going 
> with someone else!"
> 
> And she stormed off toward the girls' dormitories again.
> 
> "She's lying," said Ron flatly, watching her go.
> 
> "She's not," said Ginny quietly.
> 
> "Who is it then?"  said Ron sharply.
> 
> "I'm not telling you, it's her business," said Ginny.
> 
> "Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting 
> stupid.  Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just -"
> 
> "I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I'm going with - 
> with Neville.  He asked me when Hermione said no, and I 
thought. . . 
> well. . . I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in 
fourth 
> year."  She looked extremely miserable.  "I think I'll go and have 
> dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait 
> hole, her head bowed.
> 
> Ron goggled at Harry.
> 
> "What's got into them?"  he demanded. (GoF, UK paper, p. 348-349)
> ************************
>  
> This is how we H/Hers read this scene.  
> 
> Ron's "Hey - guess who he asked?  Hermione!" and "She
> told him she 
> was already going with someone.  Ha!  As if!  She just didn't want 
to 
> go with Neville ... I mean, who would?" doesn't sound very
> nice to 
> me.  First of all, Neville has been nothing but kind towards Ron.  
I 
> thought they were friends of a sort.  But here Ron is admitting 
that 
> he really thinks Neville is a loser.  Ginny (whom I love whenever 
we 
> glimpse her in GoF) expresses my own annoyance when she admonishes 
> him not to laugh.

I would like to note, in Ron's defence, that Neville is not
present 
to be hurt by this, and Ron has no way of knowing that he is 
unintentionally insulting Ginny.  If you suspect that Ron already, 
deep in his secret heart of hearts, has feelings for Hermione, you 
can see Ron's "not very nice" remark about Neville in a
slightly 
different light, along the lines of, "whew, no threat there."
 But 
I'm afraid Ron *does* think that Neville is a loser in the romance 
department (another sign that Ron still has a lot to learn).

> Fans are always 
> quick to defend Ron
 but what about Hermione's feelings here?
> 
> Hermione rightly calls Ron out on this.  She is completely 
> unsympathetic about his plight, and who can blame her?

Me, me – I will!  Hermione DID NOT HEAR Ron dissing Neville.  The 
*only* reason she has for thinking Ron is an insensitive prat who 
deserves to have his face rubbed in his romantic failure is 
that "troll" conversation from a few days before.  Here she
is, 
secure in having the much-courted Krum as her date, *taunting* her 
dateless friend who has just been turned down by the first girl
he's 
ever asked out.  A little oversensitive, isn't she?  

*I* forgive her easily, because I think she likes Ron, and was very 
hurt by the previous conversation.  But if you take her as simply 
showing female solidarity, I think her "hitting Ron when he is
down" 
is uncharacteristically cruel.  It is also cruel to Harry, by the 
way, simply because he is in the same position as Ron.  Not that she 
pays the slightest bit of attention to Harry in this entire scene.  ;)
  
> I emphatically do not think this implies that Hermione wants Ron to 
> ask her.  We have additional knowledge to contextualize her 
thoughts 
> in this scene.  We know that Krum, one of the most sought-after 
guys 
> at school that year because of his celebrity, has already asked her 
> to the ball.  We know that Hermione is sympathetic to the plight of 
> the underdog—Neville, house-elves, Eloise—and is used to
> being teased 
> and shunned herself.  So I don't think her remarks are a come-on.
>  I 
> think she's expressing how sweet karma really is
 Hermione
> has 
> treated people well and come out of the Yule Ball scramble like a 
> champ, while Ron, who thinks that people like Eloise and Neville 
are 
> beneath him, is the dateless one after all.

Of course she doesn't want Ron to ask her.  It's too late now
– she 
already has a date.  She *wanted* Ron to ask her before.  Now she 
wants him to suffer for "rejecting" her.  And, again,
Hermione has no 
clue that Ron "thinks Neville is beneath him."  

And, of course, Harry is dateless as well.  Is Hermione delighted by 
that karma too, or does she simply not have any attention to spare 
for Harry right now?  

Hermione has not *always* treated people well.  I'll bet she
would 
prefer that Viktor not know about the derogatory remarks she has 
previously made about his appearance.  And her being "sympathetic
to 
the plight of the underdog" doesn't extend as far as
Krum's poor 
groupies or the referee who makes a fool of himself over Veelas at 
the World cup.  Yes, she's slightly nicer and more sensitive
about 
other people's love lives than Ron, but we're not talking
Saint 
Hermione and Evil Ron here.

> Let's look at Ron's behavior now.  First, he laughs at the
> notion 
> that Hermione's got a date... and suggests she's lying.  ("No, 
you're 
> not!"  said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of Neville!")   
> Towards the end of the scene, he implies that she is being less 
than 
> truthful again.  ("As if! She just didn't want to go with 
Neville... 
> I mean, who would?")  *Totally* uncalled for
 first, he implies
> that 
> Harry was keeping his illegal Triwizard entry from him, and now he 
> seems to think Hermione is lying about really having a date
 I
> mean, 
> why in the world does the boy think his two best friends would be 
> anything other than truthful towards him?  

Ron is laughing, true.  I wouldn't say he's laughing at the
notion 
that Hermione has a date, though he could be.  I thought he was 
laughing at the idea of Neville asking Hermione to the Ball.  Anyway, 
if it's "uncalled for" to laugh at that, then Harry is
guilty as 
well.  

Ron suggests that Hermione pretended to already have a date as a 
gentle way to say `no' to Neville.  I don't see why this
is so bad – 
this is actually a commonly practiced type of social lie.  I have 
done it myself, to be quite honest, and I don't feel much guilt
about 
it.  If you want to turn down an invitation, it is a lot nicer than 
Harry's blurted "no" or Fleur's stare of disbelief. 
Ron doesn't 
*want* to believe that Hermione has a date.  It is denial on his 
part, similar to Fred's "you're JOKING!" on hearing
that Quidditch 
has been cancelled in GoF Ch. 12.  He'd much *rather* believe
that 
Hermione just didn't want to go with Neville.  Anything else is
– 
somewhere that he doesn't want to go.

> Linda puts this very well.  "This is taken to a new level before
> the 
> ball when Ron thought that Hermione lied to Neville because no one 
> would want to go with him the ball.  Ron couldn't bring himself to 
> believe that anyone else had even considered asking Hermione.  Why 
is 
> that? Because she didn't even rank high enough on the good looks 
> scale for him."

That's how *Hermione* takes it (another case of typical romantic 
misunderstanding), but it's not how Ron means it.  He is simply 
denying a truth he doesn't want to face. 
 
> So much for Ron, the Affable Average Teenage Guy.  And a lot of 
this 
> snark is at Neville's expense, behind his back. What did Neville
> ever do to him? 
 
The worst crime a male is capable of, in Ron's eyes – he
asked 
Hermione out!  Neville gets off a lot more lightly than Krum does.
 
> When Ron utters the famous "Hermione, Neville's right--you are a 
> girl..." line... in which he cites NEVILLE as an authority

> the same 
> character that Ron disparages just a few paragraphs up and 
throughout 
> the scene

> 
> 
Hermione doesn't blush or flinch at all!
> 
> If she does like Ron, I find it very strange that she doesn't quail 
> under Ron's very appraising look, followed by a grin.  Don't you?

I believe at this point she is still upheld by her righteous 
indignation.  It takes her a few beats to change over into blush mode.

> Then... look at this sequence:
> 
> ******************
> "Hermione, Neville's right--you are a girl."
> 
> "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly.
> 
> "Well, you can come with one of us."
> 
> "No, I can't," snapped Hermione.
> ******************
> 
> Ha!  She's *still* got an attitude with him here. It's all 
very "Ron, 
> you are an idiot" IMO.  I just don't get any "I like you" vibes on 
> her part.  (We have seen Hermione in "like" mode before with 
> Lockhart
 refer to CoS.  Yes, I know that was merely a crush and
> Ron is True Love, but still.  *grin*)

Umm, this is Woman Scorned mode.  We've seen it before – when
Ron 
first went gaga over Fleur.  Hermione is very right to have an 
attitude here, because Ron IS an idiot ("you are a girl,"
indeed!).  
What – you would expect her to simper?
 
> But then... notice the shift after Ron's next statement.
> 
> "Oh, come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going 
to 
> look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has..." 
> 
> "I can't come with you," said Hermione, *now blushing*...
> 
> Uh-oh.  
> 
> Okay.  Why does she only blush then
 and not along with the
"Well 
> spotted" comment?  And Ron's very thorough appraisal?  Why the 180 
> degree turnaround?
> 
> ***** 
> "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "*we* need partners, *we're* 
going 
> to look really stupid if *we* haven't got any, everyone else 
> has . . ."
> 
> Oh, this is *too* rich.
> 
> When Ron says, "Well, you can come with one of us,"
> Hermione's cross 
> for an obvious reason
 Ron's just insulted her!  But when Ron
> pleads 
> (impatiently, might I add), he re-emphasizes the "we" *three
> times*

> 
> You see, my shipmates and I speculate that it occurs to Hermione 
that 
> Harry is included in those "we" statements.  Because Ron says
> we, 
> Harry is implied as well.  And after all, Harry is Hermione's
> focus 
> for large portions of the first four books that cannot be
> ignored
 
> and Harry is the one who *needs* a partner for the ball.  Ron, 
being 
> a fourth year, *can go alone*.  But Harry can't
 he is
> required to 
> find a partner.  I am certain that Hermione is aware of this.
> 
> And she *blushes*.  
> 
> Squee!
> 
> Gotta love it.

Well, maybe that floats *your* boat – goodness knows, your ship
needs 
something to latch onto in this scene.  It doesn't seem to accord 
very well with Hermione's complete lack of interest in the fact
that 
Harry has just asked someone else and been turned down, or with 
Hermione's later claim that *Ron* asked her as a last resort.

Here's *my* interpretation of the blush:  "See, somebody
likes me, 
even if *you* think I'm a troll, Ron Weasley – so there!
– not that I 
care what you think, anyway, and I was certainly *not* hoping that 
*you'd* ask me – I wouldn't go with you if you were the
last wizard 
on earth!"

> Another thing I noticed as I read this time around, when asked to 
do 
> the R/H in GoF essay, is something that I'd never noticed before.
>  In 
> this whole exchange, from the time that Hermione descends upon the 
> three (Ron, Harry, and Ginny) there is no H/H interaction *at 
all*.  
> It's a R/H conversation that Harry happens to witness.  Harry 
doesn't 
> interject and Hermione doesn't ask him a single thing.  About his 
> rejection, about who he might be taking to the ball, about 
*anything*.

> While R/Hr-ers tend to take this sort of thing as total lack of 
> interest in anything Hermione does-feels-says-or-thinks on Harry's 
> part, I see it as JKR perhaps trying to keep things under the 
radar.  
> For a full two pages we have no interiority of Harry's
 which
is 
> strange, as we usually have a *lot* Harry's interior thought, as
> he 
> is the focalizer.  Not until the man of action decides that enough 
is 
> enough and corrals Lavender and Parvati to find a solution to his 
> problem.  

Yet another example of "lack of evidence IS evidence, eh?" 
Actually, 
I take it as even stronger evidence of *Hermione's* lack of
interest 
in *Harry*.  At least Harry is watching, and finding out about 
Hermione having a date.  Hermione doesn't have the slightest
reaction 
to Harry's love life, doesn't find out who turned him down,
and 
doesn't seem to care.  Of course, Harry doesn't seem to care
about 
Hermione's date either:

****
Ooooh -- *who*? she said keenly.

Harry shrugged.  "No idea," he said.  "So what about
Ron?"
****

But, uhh, yeah, I'd say Harry is acting as a simple conduit here 
because this is Ron and Hermione's scene.  Assuming R/H is the
actual 
plan, Harry's responses aren't very pertinent.  Why slow the
pace 
with a lot of "Harry was surprised" or "Harry winced at
Ron's 
tactlessness"?

> Well.  Why not have Ron and Hermione fade into the background, 
while 
> Harry licks his emotional wounds over being rejected by Cho?  Why 
not 
> have Harry notice Ginny, who's sitting right there
 what she
> looks 
> like, what he thinks she might be thinking?

Because she's got an R/H subplot to tell!  That's what this
scene is 
all about.

> Perhaps she is not telling us what Harry's thinking because she 
> doesn't want us to know yet
 because perhaps even Harry
> doesn't know himself.

Or perhaps Harry is cast into depression by the startling news that 
Neville is straight and prefers Hermione to him.  Could be anything, 
really, once you throw off the evidence of the text and start making 
wild wishful guesses.
  
> (Sidenote that's slightly snarky:  at the beginning of this
> scene, 
> Ginny says "they've both just been turned down by girls they
> asked to 
> the ball!"
 she makes it clear that both of the boys asked girls
> to 
> the ball, but it is Ron whose case Hermione jumps all over.  For a 
> girl who supposedly has such motherly interest where Harry's 
> concerned, she does not address him at all.  She doesn't say a
> word 
> to Harry during the entire scene either
 and usually Harry and 
> Hermione are pretty well tuned into one another, as every other 
canon 
> brief posted before me has shown.  These are the things that make 
us 
> H/Hers go "hmm
"  I know, I know.  It's probably
> nothing.  But I'm  just sayin'.)

Hey, I am a big fan of the Harry-Hermione philos, and I'm sure
that, 
if Hermione had anything less riveting on her mind than her own love-
life and her relationship with Ron, she would have given Harry's 
romantic predicament some sympathetic attention.  But she was kind of 
busy there, with matters very important to her.

> Okay, on to the "passionate" Yule Ball scenes. 
> 
> THE YULE BRAWL

> (All quotes during the ball itself can be found on pp. 366-368, UK 
> trade paper edition.)
> 
> ********************
> Hermione came over and sat down in Parvati's empty chair. She was a 
> bit pink in the face from dancing.
> 
> "Hi," said Harry. Ron didn't say anything.
> 
> "It's hot, isn't it?" said Hermione, fanning herself with her 
> hand.  "Viktor's just gone to get some drinks."
> 
> Ron gave her a withering look. "Viktor?" he said. "Hasn't he asked 
> you to call him Vicky yet?"
> 
> Hermione looked at him in surprise. "What's up with you?" she said.
> 
> "If you don't know," said Ron scathingly, "I'm not going to tell 
you."
> 
> Hermione stared at him, then at Harry, who shrugged.
> *********************
> *********************
> 
> I mean, really.  All attraction aside, Hermione is supposed to be 
his 
> best friend.  She's obviously having a great time, and so
> Ron's 
> remark stops her in her tracks.  She has no idea of what's going
> on, 
> and neither does stupid-and-clueless Harry.
> 
> *********************
> "Ron, what - ?"
> 
> "He's from Durmstrang!" spat Ron. "He's competing against Harry!  
> Against Hogwarts! You - you're -"  Ron was obviously casting around 
> for words strong enough to describe Hermione's crime, "fraternizing 
> with the enemy, that's what you're doing!"
> 
> Hermione's mouth fell open.
> 
> "Don't be so stupid!" she said after a moment. "The enemy!  
Honestly -
>  who was the one who was all excited when they saw him arrive?  Who 
> was the one who wanted his autograph?  Who's got a model of him up 
in 
> their dormitory?"
> 
> Ron chose to ignore this. "I s'pose he asked you to come with him 
> while you were both in the library?"
> 
> "Yes, he did," said Hermione, the pink patches on her cheeks 
glowing 
> more brightly. "So what?"
> 
> "What happened - trying to get him to join spew, were you?"
> 
> "No, I wasn't!  If you really want to know, he - he said he'd been 
> coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he 
> hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!"
> 
> Hermione said this very quickly, and blushed so deeply that she was 
> the same color as Parvati's robes.
> ********************
> ********************
> 
> Oh, so Hermione only blushes because she likes Ron?  Seems to me 
> she's blushing about Krum's interest in *her*, bookworm
> Hermione who 
> no one at Hogwarts sees as anything other than a brain.  I'm not 
> saying that Ron doesn't like Hermione—he so obviously
> does—but I think her thoughts are very much elsewhere.  

And I think she is blushing because she recognizes inwardly that she 
is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS 
attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him 
jealous.  She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor liking 
her.

> Notice she doesn't blush until Viktor is mentioned.  I keep
> saying 
> that it's not because she likes him that she is blushing

> being the 
> singular subject of intense male attention does make you blush.  It 
> doesn't mean you are head over heels with the guy in question. 
> Ask 
> Anne Shirley when it comes to Roy Gardiner.  Ask Jo March when it 
> comes to Laurie.  Male attention is very flattering and it's 
> femininity-affirming
 something that Hermione really needs.
> 
> Viktor, despite his surliness and introspective nature, is a guy 
that 
> a lot of girls want.  I don't think people can relate to Hermione
> in 
> this context unless they've been there
 it is a total triumph
> when 
> you are the girl no one wants and then suddenly a guy from the A-
list 
> recognizes your inner worth
 and digs you.  Hermione's not so
> much 
> embarrassed to admit this to Ron as she is embarrassed to admit it, 
> period.  I think she'd blush if she were telling Lavender or 
> Dumbledore or her parents.  ;-)

So you think she blushed when she told Ginny?  I don't.  She
didn't 
blush when Harry first saw her with Viktor, and found out about 
her `A-list' date.  She didn't blush when Parvati, Pansy,
Krum's fan 
club, and Malfoy were all gaping at her.  She only blushed when she 
said *these* words to Ron:

*****
"Yes he did (ask her in the library) 
 so what?"
*****
and

*****
"No, I wasn't!  If you *really* want to know, he – he
said he'd been 
coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he 
hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!"
*****

Note the words "if you *really* want to know."  They give us
the clue 
for whose sake Hermione is blushing, and his initials aren't VK!
 
> ******************
> "Yeah, well - that's his story," said Ron nastily.
> 
> "And what's that supposed to mean?"
> 
> "Obvious, isn't it?  He's Karkaroff's student, isn't he?  He knows 
> who you hang around with. . . . He's just trying to get closer to 
> Harry - get inside information on him - or get near enough to jinx 
> him -"
> 
> Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her.  When she spoke, her 
> voice quivered.
> ******************
> *****************
> 
> *raises hand in obnoxious Hermione-fashion*
> 
> Ooh, I know exactly why she did that!  Ron's just insulted her on
> two levels, hasn't he?  Let's take a closer look.
> 
> Harry has been a great deal of Hermione's *raison d'etre* for
> four long years... and yes, Ron's too.  Remember in PoA, during the 
> Shrieking Shack incident with Remus, Sirius, and Peter (as well as 
> Snape)?  Their friendship went to a whole different level at the 
end 
> of that book, didn't it?  When they realized they would both die
> for Harry? Just like Ron, she's sacrificed a lot for his sake.  
> 
> For Ron to say that she'd jeopardize her friendship with Harry
> and even his chances to win in such a haphazard fashion is 
positively 
> insulting.
> 
> Even worse is Ron's casting aspersions on Krum's motive for
> dating her in the first place!  Of course Krum didn't notice that 
she
> was a kind person and beautiful inside and not a troll on the 
outside, 
> either.  The only valuable thing about Hermione Granger is her 
> friendship with Harry Potter, of course
 that's all Krum
> sees.  Of course.

Yes, you are seeing this accurately.  Ron, in his refusal to 
recognize the true source of his anger, has really landed a vicious 
punch here.  "You're disloyal *and* not worth dating." 
Ouch!  What 
do you tell the girls you *don't* have a crush on, Ron?  ;)

But note Hermione's reaction – not anger, but hurt (as though
Ron had 
slapped her) and a quivering voice.  She *cares* whether or not Ron 
thinks she's worth dating, and it shows.  When Draco Malfoy 
said "someone's asked *that* to the ball?" Hermione waved
to 
Professor Moody and laughed.  She doesn't care whether Malfoy
thinks 
she's worth dating or not, but she sure seems to care what Ron
thinks 
about that subject.

> Again, yes
 I know that Ron likes Hermione.  However, I don't
> see 
> many reasons why any of  this would cause Hermione to develop a 
> sudden romantic attachment to Ron.  Quite the contrary, actually.  

It doesn't!  She *already* likes Ron.  This is just the sort of 
torture that authors are fiendishly fond of giving their characters 
who dare to like somebody.  Ideally, *both* partners will feel 
rejected, and firmly convinced the other doesn't like them, and
– 
guess what! – that's just what Ron and Hermione are feeling
here.

> Only look at how he's treating her. This sort of blatant and 
> Neanderthal disregard might turn some women on.  I posit that it 
does 
> very little for Hermione.

First, it makes her really, really mad.  Then – since she's a
very 
smart girl – it clues her in to the fact that Ron likes her after 
all.  I suspect she is a little glad to know that, even though – 
obviously – she's not going to go out with him until he grows
up and 
asks her properly.
 
> So is she secretly in love with him?  Or even in like?  Or even on 
> the same page as those who foresee R/H romance upcoming in OotP?

Well, yes.  That's what this is all about, isn't it? 
Embarrassment, 
hurt, and confusion – sounds like classic fictional love to me!

> ************
> "For your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about 
> Harry, not one -"
> 
> Ron changed tack at the speed of light.
> 
> "Then he's hoping you'll help him find out what his egg means! I 
> suppose you've been putting your heads together during those cozy 
> little library sessions -"
> 
> "I'd never help him work out that egg!" said Hermione, looking 
> outraged. "Never.  How could you say something like that - I want 
> Harry to win the tournament.  Harry knows that, don't you, Harry?"
> 
> "You've got a funny way of showing it," sneered Ron.
> ************
> ************
> 
> Hypocritical much, Ron?  Who's been more faithful to Harry in
> GoF, Ron or Hermione?

Wildly hypocritical – especially considering that he asked Fleur!
 
But *we* know why Ron is flailing around wildly like this.  And by 
the end of the evening, it's clear that Hermione has figured it
out 
as well.
 
> **************
> "This whole tournament's supposed to be about getting to know 
foreign 
> wizards and making friends with them!"  said Hermione hotly.
> 
> "No it isn't!" shouted Ron.  "It's about winning!"
> 
> People were starting to stare at them.
> 
> "Ron," said Harry quietly, "I haven't got a problem with Hermione 
> coming with Krum -"
> 
> But Ron ignored Harry too.
> **************
> **************
> 
> All right, Casanova!  Ron really needs to straighten his
> priorities
 
> even if he's not aware that he likes Hermione yet, he could have
> at least been civil to her as she is first and foremost his 
friend.  
> Instead he is letting his temper get the better of him
 yet
again.

If everyone conducted their romances with rationality and good 
manners, I'm sure the world would be a better place... but it
would 
sure take a lot of fun out of these books!  This is supposed to be 
funny and entertaining.  Maybe it doesn't suit your tastes, but
it 
certainly does suit mine!

> **************
> "Why don't you go and find Vicky, he'll be wondering where you 
are," 
> said Ron.
> 
> "Don't call him Vicky!"
> 
> Hermione jumped to her feet and stormed off across the dance floor, 
> disappearing into the crowd.  Ron watched her go with a mixture of 
> anger and satisfaction on his face.
> 
> "Are you going to ask me to dance at all?" Padma asked him.
> 
> "No," said Ron, still glaring after Hermione.
> 
> "Fine," snapped Padma, and she got up and went to join Parvati and 
> the Beauxbatons boy, who conjured up one of his friends to join 
them 
> so fast that Harry could have sworn he had zoomed him there by a 
> Summoning Charm.
> **************
> **************
> 
> Not only is Ron extremely impolite and rude to Hermione, now Padma 
is 
> subject to his vitriol as well.  Eloise
 Neville
 and now
> Padma?  I 
> don't care if they're just minor characters, Ron just
> isn't treating 
> them very kindly.  Can you imagine Hermione falling for a guy who 
> thumbs his nose at others whenever he's in a bad mood?  If so,
> then you obviously detect a cruel streak in her character that I do 
not.  

Err, sure.  And so can you, apparently, since Harry treats Parvati 
almost identically.  I fail to see how Hermione falling for Ron would 
indicate that she has a "cruel streak."  And remember, Eloise
and 
Neville DON'T EVEN KNOW that Ron has been so "vitriolic"
to them.  
Heh – maybe *they* say vicious things about *him* in private --
who 
knows?

And, no, I don't think that Ron falling for Hermione would show
that 
he has a "cruel streak," either.  I think that it is
perfectly okay 
for Hermione to say that Krum isn't good-looking, and display
scorn 
toward his groupies.  I'm even willing to forgive her for making
fun 
of Draco Malfoy about the ferret thing, making derogatory remarks 
about Fleur, and repeatedly calling Ron "stupid."  I guess
the thing 
is that I don't have your high moral standards, Eb.  Try not to
be 
too shocked, but I've even been known to occasionally say mean
things 
and act rudely myself.  So I guess my husband must have a cruel 
streak – he fell in love with me.

> Having fun is one thing.  Pure meanness is quite another.  And if I 
> felt sorry for Ron before mid-GoF (which I did), I lost a lot of my 
> empathy for him after reading this book.   Having problems in your 
> own life is not an excuse to be nasty to others.  I have no idea 
how 
> even the most rabid Ron fan can defend the mean things he says 
> before, during, and after the Yule Ball.  They are totally 
> indefensible IMO.  

Now, I, on the other hand, didn't really *start* liking Ron until
the 
Cat/Rat fight and the GoF fight.  I liked him okay, but I didn't 
really *love* him until I started seeing his vulnerabilities and 
weaknesses and fears.  I suppose I must have a blunted moral 
sensibility or something, but I simply cannot see what was so 
indefensible about what Ron said:

-	He said he didn't want to date an unattractive girl – and 
named Eloise Midgen as the type of girl he meant;

-	He assumed (and said) that Neville Longbottom wasn't the type 
of girl Hermione, or anyone, would want to date;

-	He was incredibly rude to his date, Padma Patil; and

-	In his jealousy, he said a variety of extremely rude and 
stupid things to Hermione.

I have, thank goodness, never had an occasion to do the fourth thing, 
but I blush to admit I have done all the other three.  Talking in 
privacy with my friends, I have straight-out said I wouldn't want
to 
date certain unattractive males.  Again, in privacy, I have 
unthinkingly assumed that certain girls wouldn't be very
attractive 
to boys.  I have – only once, but I was three years older than
Ron – 
shamefully ignored a man I was on a date with, because a man I 
preferred was present.  I'm not proud of any of these, but I hope 
they're not `indefensible.'  As for the fourth one –
yes, I can 
forgive that, too.  And, I must say that on a list where Redeemable!
Pettigrew and Sexy!Crouch Jr. are regular residents, I find the 
description of JealousPrat!Ron as "indefensible" slightly
startling.
 
> It literally broke my heart to read Ron's characterization in
> GoF.  

I'm sorry, but no, it didn't.
 
> I grow very wary whenever I witness someone in RL, in canon, or in 
> fandom get overly defensive.  As I tell my students, the unusually 
> defensive usually are hiding something, methinks.  If the 
accusations 
> are ridiculous, then why get so defensive?  

I fail to see how the "defensiveness" of members of the
fandom can 
possibly have the slightest effect on JKR's intentions in writing
the 
Harry Potter series.  Are you saying that we should recognize that 
your point of view must be correct because your opponents act in a 
shifty-eyed manner?  That's just silly.  Your arguments must
stand or 
fall on their own merits.  In the past on this list, many arguments 
have been made that sparked an emotional reaction that one might call 
defensive – Fred and George as bullies springs to mind, and both 
sides of The Prank.  I think it would be ridiculous to argue that one 
side must be right because the other side was "defensive." 
Such 
things simply mean that you have struck a point on which people have 
strong opinions and emotional attachments.  It certainly doesn't
mean 
they are "hiding something"!  What could we be hiding?  That
JKR sent 
us a letter, and it *is* H/H?

> H/H shippers have repeatedly conceded both Harry *and* Hermione's 
> personality flaws.  Rarely do we receive reciprocation on Ron's 
> part.  I know personally of a few R/H shippers have conceded some 
of 
> our points about Ron's character, but the reason why many of the
> more 
> astute H/Hers refuse to debate ship anymore is because we are often 
> confronted with this extreme irrationality when it comes to Ron.  
And 
> what is a debate, if it does not have reason as its basis?

I would dispute your perception here.  I have *never* met anyone who 
called themselves an R/H shipper who would not freely admit that Ron 
is hot-tempered, sharp-tongued, impulsive, somewhat lazy- or 
conventional-minded, a procrastinator, a wishful thinker, and 
frequently a complete and utter idiot.  Now, if you try to get us to 
admit that Ron is headed on a path toward turning evil and betraying 
Harry to Voldemort – no.  I think that's preposterous.  But I
hasten 
to say the same of Harry and Hermione – the idea of either of
them 
turning evil is just as preposterous to me!

> Okay, here comes the lovely sequence that I always get tossed into 
my 
> face whenever I ask for proof that Hermione likes Ron:
> 
> ******************
> The Fat Lady and her friend Vi were snoozing in the picture over 
the 
> portrait hole. Harry had to yell "Fairy lights!" before he woke 
them 
> up, and when he did, they were extremely irritated.  
> 
> He climbed into the common room and found Ron and Hermione having a 
> blazing row.  Standing ten feet apart, they were bellowing at each 
> other, each scarlet in the face.
> 
> "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't 
> you?"  yelled Hermione; her hair was coming down out of its elegant 
> bun now, and her face was screwed up in anger.
> 
> "Oh yeah?" Ron yelled back. "What's that?"
> 
> "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not 
> as a last resort!"
> 
> Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione 
> turned on her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed. Ron 
> turned to look at Harry.
> 
> "Well," he sputtered, looking thunderstruck, "well - that just 
> proves - completely missed the point -"
> 
> Harry didn't say anything.  He liked being back on speaking terms 
> with Ron too much to speak his mind right now - but he somehow 
> thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had.
> ****************
> ****************
> 
> In my humble opinion, Penny explains away this bit of the chapter 
far 
> better than anyone else in the entire fandom.  H/Hers, after 
*putting 
> this scene in its context*, just do not think that Hermione's
> shout of "not as a last resort" is a deliberate come-on. 
> 
> Here's why.
> 
> First of all, we wonder why JKR had Harry walk in *towards the end 
of 
> this debate*.  We just don't understand the point of it, if JKR
> was meaning to be transparent.  As I have proven earlier, our 
wonderful 
> author has no problem with having Harry witness entire Ron-and-
> Hermione scenes
 so what's up now?
> 
> "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't 
> you?"
> 
> What specifically is "it", Hermione?  Why did JKR put that
> pronoun in your mouth?  What can't we know?

Umm, could it be that JKR didn't have to tell us because it's
so darn 
*obvious*?  Let me think – just taking a wild guess here – I
think 
the `it' that Ron didn't like was Hermione attending the
Yule Ball 
with Krum.  Do you seriously have another candidate to propose?  The 
giant squid, perhaps?  Broccoli?

> We simply don't know what "it" is, because we walked in
> along with 
> Harry at the end of the conversation.  So we, like Harry, end up 
> making a lot of assumptions.  
> 
> "He somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much
> better 
> than Ron had.
> 
> What point, Harry?

The point that they are arguing about.  Ron thinks it is whether 
Hermione is being disloyal to Harry.  But Harry knows that it is 
really about whether Hermione is being "unfaithful" to Ron. ;)

> Going back to Hermione's famous statement:  "Next time there's a 
> ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!", 
we 
> wonder if Hermione is really issuing a real invitation to Ron, 
after 
> an honest read of the two chapters that led up to her frustrated 
> remark.  She's seen what qualities Ron values in girls. 
> She's seen how he treated his date that evening.  She's been 
repeatedly
> insulted  by him for no good reason at all.

It's not an invitation, it's an order.  She's telling him
to put up 
or shut up.  

> As Linda says:  "Maybe she did want Ron to ask her out and not as
> a last resort.  I don't know.  But after the troll crack and the 
> doubting that anyone else besides Neville would ask her out - I'd 
be 
> damned pissed at him.  I'd also be re-evaluating any attraction I 
> felt towards him."

Ron is fortunate, then, that he has a crush on a more tolerant 
female.  Hermione, apparently, feels that an honest and forthright 
ball invitation would be a sufficient admission and apology on
Ron's 
part.  Considering what the fight was *really* about, I think so 
too.  All of Ron's "insults" become contentless once he
admits that 
he is interested in Hermione.  It is hard to argue that someone is 
unattractive if you are wildly attracted to them.  If Ron asks 
Hermione out on a date, that proves she's NOT a troll, she IS a
girl, 
Krum probably DIDN'T ask her just to get information about Harry,
and 
she's NOT likely to be telling a social lie when she tells
Neville 
she has a date.  He will prove himself wrong on all counts.

> Amen.  Note also that her shout gives no indication that she'd 
> say "yes" to him if he did ask.  Judging from the two
> chapters that 
> just passed--I'd say not.

Oh, well, that's a different story, isn't it?  But I
don't see how 
else it would be a "solution" to what he doesn't like. 
Of course, 
I'm still going by my silly assumption that I know what
"it" is, but 
I plan to cling to it until I hear another plausible option for that 
mysterious word.
 
> But as my analysis shows, the fundamental question of "does 
Hermione 
> like Ron as more than a friend?", a question that was posed to JKR 
> during a spring 2001 interview, has not been answered 
satisfactorily 
> in the #1 instance of the text cited to prove the case.

But JKR said it was answered *somewhere* in GoF!  I certainly think 
an instruction to ask her to the next ball is an excellent candidate 
to be that answer.  If not here, where?

I have never seen anyone on the H/H side of the debate give a 
credible suggestion for where that question was answered in the 
negative.  Just where, in your opinion, should we look for assurance 
that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron as more than a friend?


Angua