SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 50277

Hi all --

I'm going to be snipping liberally from both Ebony and Angua's posts, because it's already gotten unwieldly.  I will endeavor to keep enough context as necessary though.

Angua:

<<<<I will agree with Linda and Ebony thus far - it is a very rare
woman who would be attracted by such behavior.  No R/H shipper would 
argue, "See how charming Ron is?  No wonder Hermione likes
him!"  Not at all.  Our attention is caught by something else entirely.  We notice how quickly Hermione rises to Ron's bait here.>>>>>>

Are you saying that Ron is *baiting* Hermione deliberately here?  I suspect that he was clueless and had perhaps even forgotten that she was even there.  I think he *meant* that comment exactly as it sounded.  Mind you, I think it's reasonably typical remarks from a 14-yr old boy ..... but I don't think he was trying to get a rise out of Hermione. 

<<<<She has sat silently studying her potions notes through Fred and George trying to borrow Pigwidgeon, Fred and George discouraging Ron's questions with insults, and Fred publicly asking Angelina for a date.  She is not shown responding at all, not looking up from her work - nothing.>>>

Well ...... why *would* she?  She's quietly studying because she is surrounded by normalcy.  When Ron makes an obviously chauvinistic, churlish remark, she reacts predictably.  It would have gotten my attention too, notorious bookworm that I am.
 
<<<<And yet, when Ron says:

****
"We *should* get a move on, you know. ask someone.  He's
right.  We don't want to end up with a pair of trolls."
****

Hermione's attention is immediately engaged, so engaged that
Ron's wrong answer sends her out of the room in indignation.  Why?  I say
- because she was possibly hoping Ron would ask her (she may or may not 
have already been asked by Krum at this point).  This is not the 
occasion for Hermione to *start* being interested in Ron; this is the 
occasion for Hermione's already emerging interest in Ron to
receive a sharp slap across the face.  This is the kind of misunderstanding and setback that all good humorous romance stories have.>>>>>

I agree with you that she may or may not already have a date with Krum.  I don't see any basis other than subjective wishful thinking though for your position that she's angry because she hoped that Ron would ask her and now her hopes are deflated.  It's possible that she was hoping that Ron would ask her.  It's equally possible she was hoping Harry or Krum or Neville would ask her.  We have no idea who she had hoped to go with.  All we know is that she's righteously angry with Ron for basing his dating choices solely on appearances.  

<<<<Note, too, that Hermione betrays no interest in or curiousity about 
what kind of girls HARRY might want to ask to the ball - even
though Harry is sitting right there, and Ron's "we" includes him.>>>>>>

Well, first off: she wasn't curious about who RON might want to ask to the Ball either.  Ron started that entire conversation.  I sincerely doubt that Hermione was about to ask Ron or Harry who they hoped to go to the Ball with.  But, more importantly, it wasn't Harry who had just behaved like an insensitive clod.  It's appropriate that her reaction is focused on Ron; Harry hasn't *said* anything.  If Ron had made his comment and then Harry had nodded or laughed or otherwise expressed agreement and *then* Hermione had focused her anger solely on Ron, you'd have a valid point.  But, you don't. 

Ebony: > Fans are always 
> quick to defend Ron. but what about Hermione's feelings here?
> > Hermione rightly calls Ron out on this.  She is completely 
> unsympathetic about his plight, and who can blame her?

Angua:

<<<<Me, me - I will!  Hermione DID NOT HEAR Ron dissing Neville.  The 
*only* reason she has for thinking Ron is an insensitive prat who 
deserves to have his face rubbed in his romantic failure is 
that "troll" conversation from a few days before.  Here she
is, secure in having the much-courted Krum as her date, *taunting* her 
dateless friend who has just been turned down by the first girl
he's ever asked out.  A little oversensitive, isn't she?  *I* forgive her easily, because I think she likes Ron, and was very hurt by the previous conversation.  But if you take her as simply showing female solidarity, I think her "hitting Ron when he is down" is uncharacteristically cruel.  It is also cruel to Harry, by the way, simply because he is in the same position as Ron.  Not that she pays the slightest bit of attention to Harry in this entire scene.  ;)>>>>>>>>>>

I agree that she was very hurt by the trolls remark, but it may or may not have anything to do with personal feelings for Ron.  

Ahem.  You rightly point out that Hermione did not hear Ron dissing Neville.  But neither did she have any real reason to see that Ron was *down* and abject from Fleur's rejection.  When Hermione walks in, the boys are *laughing.*  So, I disagree that Hermione was being "uncharacteristically cruel."  Besides, this is the M.O. for Ron/Hr, isn't it?  Being sarcastic with just enough edge to be really cutting?  

Angua:

<<<<<Of course she doesn't want Ron to ask her.  It's too late now - she 
already has a date.  She *wanted* Ron to ask her before.  Now she wants him to suffer for "rejecting" her.  And, again, Hermione has no clue that Ron "thinks Neville is beneath him."  
And, of course, Harry is dateless as well.  Is Hermione delighted by 
that karma too, or does she simply not have any attention to spare 
for Harry right now?>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, again, it wasn't *Harry* who made the insensitive Trolls comment.  Ron also didn't even have the good sense to try & backtrack out of the mess he'd made ("Yeah ..... that sounds about right.").  

If Ron "rejected" Hermione, he did so based on appearances, didn't he?  

Shifting to the Yule Brawl:

> "No, I wasn't!  If you really want to know, he - he said he'd been 
> coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he 
> hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!"
> 
> Hermione said this very quickly, and blushed so deeply that she was 
> the same color as Parvati's robes.
> ********************
> ********************
> 
> Ebony: Oh, so Hermione only blushes because she likes Ron?  Seems to me 
> she's blushing about Krum's interest in *her*, bookworm
> Hermione who > no one at Hogwarts sees as anything other than a brain.  I'm not 
> saying that Ron doesn't like Hermione-he so obviously
> does-but I think her thoughts are very much elsewhere.  

Angua:

<<<<<And I think she is blushing because she recognizes inwardly that she 
is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS 
attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him 
jealous.  She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor liking 
her.>>>>>>>>>>>

If she blushes *every* time she talks about Viktor liking her, that might be because *Harry is there.*  I know the R/H fans think there is all this wonderful bantering R/H interaction happening off-page, but there's no canon on that.  If we see Hermione blushing, Ron isn't the only boy in the Trio who's present.  So, the blushes could be for Ron.  But, they could be for Harry.  Or, they could just be because she's thinking about Krum and being the object of his affections.

Angua: <<<<<So you think she blushed when she told Ginny?  I don't.  She didn't 
blush when Harry first saw her with Viktor, and found out about her `A-list' date.  She didn't blush when Parvati, Pansy, Krum's fan club, and Malfoy were all gaping at her.  She only blushed when she  said *these* words to Ron:

*****
"Yes he did (ask her in the library) . so what?"
*****
and

*****
"No, I wasn't!  If you *really* want to know, he - he
said he'd been coming up to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he 
hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!"
*****>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

She wasn't *speaking* to Harry or Parvarti or Pansy, and she was excited by all the attention.  

Angua:  <<<<<Yes, you are seeing this accurately.  Ron, in his refusal to 
recognize the true source of his anger, has really landed a vicious punch here.  "You're disloyal *and* not worth dating." Ouch!  What do you tell the girls you *don't* have a crush on, Ron?  ;)

But note Hermione's reaction - not anger, but hurt (as though Ron had 
slapped her) and a quivering voice.  She *cares* whether or not Ron 
thinks she's worth dating, and it shows.  When Draco Malfoy 
said "someone's asked *that* to the ball?" Hermione waved
to Professor Moody and laughed.  She doesn't care whether Malfoy
thinks she's worth dating or not, but she sure seems to care what Ron
thinks about that subject.>>>>>>>>>>>

Hang on.  If Ron hadn't thrown a vicious double-barreled punch, would her reaction still have been the same?  In other words, isn't it possible that the real source of her *hurt* is because Ron accused her of disloyalty to Harry?  I think you make my case.  When Draco insults her on the basis of her appearance, she laughs it off.  She smirks at Pansy and Parvarti, knowing full well that they are likely thinking something similar to what Malfoy voiced.  So, why can't she laugh it off with Ron?  It *could* be because she has romantic feelings for him.  It's equally plausible that it's because it's Harry she cares about.  Or, most likely, it's because Ron is her friend, and he's just accused her of being disloyal to their other best friend.  Of course she's hurt.  I would be too.

Ebony:<<<<< "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't 
> you?"
> 
> What specifically is "it", Hermione?  Why did JKR put that
> pronoun in your mouth?  What can't we know?>>>>>>>

Angua: <<<<<<Umm, could it be that JKR didn't have to tell us because it's
so darn *obvious*?  Let me think - just taking a wild guess here - I
think the `it' that Ron didn't like was Hermione attending the
Yule Ball with Krum.  Do you seriously have another candidate to propose?  The 
giant squid, perhaps?  Broccoli?>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah, I think you're exactly right about the "it," Angua.  It makes no sense whatsoever for it to be anything else.  But, the real divergence of opinion amongst the shippers relates to interpretation of her remark.  My shipmates tend to think that she's very angry.  He's again throwing this disloyalty thing in her face (so he's not even being upfront about the real reason for his anger).  The "it" was not "Why did you go to the Ball with Krum .... I asked you!"  It was "You were fraternizing with the enemy, going with Krum!"  Her angry retort of asking her other than as a last resort becomes a little less personal in my mind under the latter scenario.  She's not saying that she would accept.  She's saying "Look buddy, you've no right to complain about who I go to the Ball with.  You only asked me as a last resort ...... because you couldn't get someone prettier.  But, if you want to change all that, don't ask me as a last resort ......and we'll see."  


Ebony: > "He somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much
> better > than Ron had.
> 
> What point, Harry?

Angua: <<<<The point that they are arguing about.  Ron thinks it is whether 
Hermione is being disloyal to Harry.  But Harry knows that it is 
really about whether Hermione is being "unfaithful" to Ron. ;)>>>>>>>

No, the *point* is that Ron has a crush on Hermione.  Hermione now knows this.  Whether she reciprocates that feeling is not clear.  This is December.  If she *knows* he has a crush on her *and* she reciprocates it, why doesn't she stop spending time with Krum and focus on trying to get Ron to grow up and face his feelings?  She goes from at least January - June (6 mths), knowing full well that her love interest likes her back ...... and she does nothing to encourage him to get a move on?  :::remembers being 14/15 and is confused by this scenario::::::::::

<<<<<<<<<<> But as my analysis shows, the fundamental question of "does 
Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?", a question that was posed to JKR 
 during a spring 2001 interview, has not been answered satisfactorily 
> in the #1 instance of the text cited to prove the case.>>>>>>

Angua: <<<<<<<But JKR said it was answered *somewhere* in GoF!  I certainly think 
an instruction to ask her to the next ball is an excellent candidate 
to be that answer.  If not here, where?

I have never seen anyone on the H/H side of the debate give a 
credible suggestion for where that question was answered in the 
negative.  Just where, in your opinion, should we look for assurance 
that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron as more than a friend?>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think the answer is that she likes Harry ........ though maybe she likes them both.  But, frankly, if I wanted R/H to be an ultimate happy-ever-after resolution, I'm not so sure I'd be jumping up & down by the idea that they might date at age 15.  Quite rare, even in fiction, even in the wizarding world, for that to work out as a long-term relationship.  

Penny



 

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