[HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: The Yule Brawl--The Problem With Reading R/H in GoF

[Laura Ingalls Huntley]

No: HPFGUIDX 50332

First off, Penny, I love you. ^_~  You give this H/H's pessimistic heart a
shred of hope.

Angua:
> But, once Ron gave Hermione the opening, she certainly WAS curious
> about Ron's dating criteria.  She could have *easily* given the
> conversation a Harry-related turn, even by something as simple as
> saying "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking *girls*
> who'll have you," rather than "best-looking *girl* who'll have you.

But she's attacking Ron for his ghastly remark.  Harry didn't do anything
wrong, why should she turn on him as well?  As someone who has launched
similar attacks for similar reasons, I know that I, at least, try not to let
the overflow of scathing remark (ha!) fall on innocent bystanders.  It's
only polite.

Angua:
> Another missed opportunity occurred when Hagrid asked Harry who he > was
taking to the ball a few pages earlier.  If Hermione had looked
> at Harry, or changed the subject, or done anything, really, that
> could have been taken as a clue.  The fact that she didn't doesn't
> prove anything -- it's just another of the many, many places where
> H/H *could have been* foreshadowed, but *isn't*.

I agree with your point here.  There are few instances that might be
construed as *solid* support for H/H.  However, I see very little instances
that give concrete support for Hr ---> R, either.  As far as I can tell, the
only thing we can be sure of is that Ron Likes Hermione.  A lot.  We don't
know if she returns his feelings -- and as far as I've seen, R/Hers have yet
to come up with anything but shaky (at best) conjectures and hypothesis
about what she might be feeling in certain circumstances.

Angua:
> But I agree with you that Hermione was hurt, and is not just needling
> Ron for fun, or from feminism.  She speaks "loftily" and "acidly,"
> and "snaps."  There is no lifted eyebrows or sly grin of appreciation
> for karma -- she is angry.  I don't think she is SO insecure about
> her appearance, or SO militantly feminist, as to be *hurt* by Ron's
> remark, UNLESS she wants him to find her attractive.

I would definitely be just as insulted by those remarks whether I liked Ron
or not.  They're horrid, uncalled for, and totally chauvinistic.
Furthermore, I *don't* think it takes militant feminism to feel the way I
do.  Granted, I understand that teenage boys often act this way...and even
men and women of all ages...I've probably said something similar myself at
one point, but if I ever heard one of my friends saying what Ron said, I
wouldn't soon let him forget about it. Especially as he was not in the least
sorry when his error was pointed out to him.  I think most of us caught
judging people solely on their looks would feel properly ashamed when we
realized what we were doing -- not Ron.  He just plows on, as if there's
nothing wrong with it.  Insult upon insult.

Angua:
>The contrast
> between her sensitivity here (when Ron wasn't even talking about her)
> and her nonchalance in response to truly vicious public insults about
> her teeth from Draco Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson is striking to me.

But those are people she doesn't respect -- despises them, actually.  She's
used to them being stupid and arrogant and vile.  She doesn't give a rat's
ass what they think.  But Ron is one of her best friends.  Someone she's
been through *a lot* with and cares for.  Of course she'd take objection to
his comments and not to Malfoy's.  Again, who cares what Malfoy thinks?
He's pathetic and she dislikes him anyway.

Do you think that she would have let Harry get away with saying what Ron
said?  I really can't even begin to imagine that -- it would be totally
uncharacteristic of her.

> Angua:
> > <<<<<And I think she is blushing because she recognizes inwardly
> that she
> > is bragging to Ron in a way that is likely to show him that she IS
> > attractive to boys, after all, and maybe (hopefully?) make him
> > jealous.  She blushes *every* time she tells Ron about Viktor
> liking
> > her.>>>>>>>>>>>

Amy Z:
>How about this?  She's blushing because they're talking about her
>dating life.  It's personal.  It's embarrassing.  It touches on
>something heretofore secret and rather exciting.  Hence, a blush.
>Lots of people can be reduced to blushing with the words, "I think he
>likes you . . ." or "Who are you going to the ball with?"  The
>situation is blushworthy even if no one one feels attracted to is
>listening (I *do* think Hermione would very possibly blush when she
>told Ginny about it).

I agree with Amy here.  I was certainly that way at Hermione's age....far
past it, actually.  If I was put in a situation that I could not just ignore
my self out of (i.e. a boy actually asked me out or I had to explain someone
else's feelings for me or v.v.)  I would not only start to blush, but my
hands would start to shake -- regardless of if I actually *liked* anyone in
a 80 mile radius.  And I. Am. Not. Afraid. Of. Anything.  Except that.  I
think Hermione's reaction is very typical of a girl her age who is new to
dealing with relationships and *liking* people (or not liking them) and the
emotional conflict and confusion that brings.

> Angua again:
> No -- we think that there is all this wonderful bantering R/H
> interaction happening ON-PAGE.  Well, we think it probably happens
> off-page as well (because why wouldn't it?) but what we see right
> there in canon is plenty enough to stoke our engines.  They banter
> beautifully, especially considering their young age.

Banter?  *Banter*?! Calling what Hermione and Ron do "banter" is an insult
to a very fine art.  They bicker.  They out-and-out fight.  They insult one
another.  They do not banter.  To banter is to tease.  To make witty
semi-clawed comments.  To engage in playful mock-sparring.  They do nothing
of the sort.  Occasionally Ron will say something mean-but-humorous that is
meant to rile her (which can be a lead-in to banter), but I cannot recall
Hermione reacting with anything but irritation or anger (again, not
bantering) -- she does not play back.  Mostly, however, he's just being
cluelessly insensitive.

> Angua again:
> This is a possibility, but we can eliminate it by looking more
> closely at the text.  The time when Hermione looked as though Ron had
> slapped her and her voice quivered, Ron wasn't accusing her of
> *disloyalty*:
>
> *****
> ..."He's just trying to get closer to Harry -- get inside information
> on him -- or get near enough to jinx him --"
> *****
>
> Ron might be said to be accusing Hermione of *gullibility* here, but
> not disloyalty.  In this scenario, Krum is the wicked deceitful
> Lothario and Hermione is the innocent dupe.  But the "Krum doesn't
> like you for yourself" implication is full-blast.

Yes, and if my best friend behaved the way Ron did (male *or* female) I
would be incredibly hurt as well.  He's not only calling her gullible -
refuting the one thing Hermione *is* sure she has going for
her...intelligence and rational thinking - but he's suggesting that no one
would date her for any other reason.  I can't see Hermione's reaction as
being different if someone else who mattered to her had said it (how could
Malfoy's opinon even register as semi-relevant to her?).  Furthermore, he
*is* her friend and he *ought* to be happy for her -- it's a very special
night for her, she's had a triumph of sort over people like Malfoy, etc.
Instead, he insults her.  Not only does he accusing her of betrayal --
*he's* the one betraying her friendship and trust.