TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie (WAS:R and H do TOO Banter)

[derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50447

Epigraph


[This is not a poem about banter. This is a poem about playing an 
instrument, and about making love. But it kind of fits. Or maybe not. 
Anyway, it's a cool poem.]

The Guitarist Tunes Up

With what attentive courtesy he bent
Over his instrument;
Not as a lordly conqueror who could
Command both wire and wood,
But as a man with a loved woman might,
Inquiring with delight
What slight essential things she had to say
Before they started, he and she, to play.

                  Frances Cornford (1886-1960)

--------


"AHOY!"

Derannimer lowered her hand. She had been shading her eyes, but it 
wasn't necessary any more. Over the bright sun came a large dark 
shadow. The thing moved, slowly, until it was hanging right over her 
head. Then it stopped.

Staring up at it, she saw a sudden flash and ripple of silver, as 
something shot over the edge of the boat and began to fall towards 
her. 

It fell very fast. Closer and closer and--

She took a step back, and the thing snapped down into place front of 
her, and then wavered slightly in the breeze. 

A rope ladder. Made of some very odd looking, slender, silvery rope. 

It didn't look particularly sturdy. 

She hesitated. 

"Look alive there!" came a shout from the dark shape above her. 

Derannimer couldn't help but think that if she entrusted her weight 
to the helpful little ladder in front of her then she would look 
alive for about five seconds and after that goodness only knew how 
she would look. [1]

But there weren't many other ways of getting up there. 

She reached out a hand, gave the ladder a firm tug--it didn't 
collapse--and then started up it. 

Several minutes later, she clapped a hand over the deck rail, and 
felt someone grab onto her wrist. 

"Right then," said a cheerful Ebony, as Derannimer, having clambered 
onto the deck, brushed off her pants and gazed around with 
approval. "Is this your first trip up on a SHIP before?" 

"Uh. . . yes," said Derannimer. She was busy staring at the view. The 
Bay really looked gorgeous from this height--a little drop of 
turquoise, moving slowly as the SHIP picked up speed again, and 
ringed with white sand. The enormous storm to the East didn't exactly 
look gorgeous, but it was pretty nifty too. 

"Well, you're doing quite well for a beginner; you've certainly got 
good taste in vessels at any rate!" Ebony laughed, and looked at the 
gleaming row of cannons with pride. "Welcome to the S.S. Pumpkin 
Pie." 

"Yes, well, about that," said Derannimer, leaning over the rail to 
look down on the Big Bang. The destroyer, where she had been standing 
not ten minutes ago, looked utterly binky. *Like a little toy boat,* 
she thought, and decided not to mention this to Captain Cindy when 
she got back. "I didn't just come up here for the view, you know. 
I've been watching the recent. . . "

"Brawling," supplied Ebony. 

". . . brawling from down on the Bay, and I noticed something about--"

Derannimer doesn't finish her sentence, as Ebony suddenly grabs her 
arm and yanks her about four yards to the right. A second later, a 
large and fiery something slams into the deck where Derannimer was 
standing. 

"Sorry about that," says Ebony. She reaches out a hand to help up 
Derannimer, who had fallen down when the thing hit the SHIP. "You get 
so you can spot 'em coming, after a while."

"Right," says Derannimer. She is curious, and as Ebony goes over to 
inspect the still-smoking something-or-other, Derannimer does the 
same. 

It is a cannon-ball. The smoke is coming from something carved into 
the side--a pattern of glowing lines. As the smoke clears, Derannimer 
realizes that the lines form letters, and words, which slowly rise 
into the air with the smoke. 

Ebony and Derannimer read them with great interest.

"Here are some examples," begin the words, "of what I consider to be 
successful, two-sided bantering (sorry about length! -- but this is 
probably the main reason we R/Hers so love our ship)"

The message continues for quite a space. The two theorists read it, 
then watch as it words drift higher and higher. The words dim as they 
rise, until finally they break into scattered smoke, and fall towards 
the water.  

There is a moment of silence. Derannimer frowns. 

"Eb?" she asks.

"Mmm?"

"This is from the Good Ship, right?"

Ebony laughs. "Yep. From--" the cannon-ball has now cooled enough for 
her to touch it, and she rolls it over to expose another set of fiery 
letters, which begin drifting upwards themselves. "From Angua. 
Message 50348. 

"Well, I mean, of course it's from the Good Ship. I mean, who else 
regularly tries to knock us out of the sky?

"And us them, too," she adds after a moment's thought. 

Derannimer is still frowning. "But. . .well, exactly what is she 
saying? Is she saying that *that,*" she gestures downwards at the 
smoky remnants of Angua's attack, "that *that* is *banter?*"

"Yes, I think that's what she's saying. I mean, I wouldn't, but she 
apparently--"


"AAAAAARR-AAAAAARRRGH! WHO CALLS *THAT* BANTER!?" interupts 
Derannimer, quite rudely. 

"Well, I wouldn't, but--"

"That is not--NOT NOT NOT NOT--*BANTER!!*"

Penny, desiring to know what on board might be making that curious 
noise, walks over. 

Derannimer stops yelling at the distant silhouette of the Good Ship, 
and turns to Penny. 

"Oh, hello Penny," she says cheerfully. 

"Hi," says Penny. "I came over because I heard rather a rum noise."

"That was her," explains Ebony, pointing. 

"That was me," agrees Derannimer. "I was screaming at the Good Ship."

"Ah. 

"Well, we do that a lot around here. What about?"

"Angua," says Ebony matter-of-factly. "She was using that old R/H 
banter line and--"

"Ooh, yes," says Penny, now looking quite angry herself. "I tried to 
argue with her about that one. Calling what Hermione and Ron 
do "banter" is an insult to a very fine art."

"Yeah, well," says Ebony, "Angua's not obviously buying. She just 
fired a lot of examples of what she calls 'succesful two-sided 
bantering.'

"And I thought it was quite outrageous," says a huffy Derannimer. "I 
don't think there was one example of honest-to-goodness banter in 
that whole thing."


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Angua (who probably meant well) wrote: "Here are some examples of 
what I consider to be successful, two-sided bantering (sorry about 
length! -- but this is probably the main reason we R/Hers so love our 
ship)"

Oh, Angua. I don't mind the length. 

I'm sorry (well, no I'm not) but I have to take a great deal of issue 
with your examples. All of 'em. 

First off, though, a definition, so you know my sense of the topic, 
and where I'm coming from: banter is reciprocal, playful, witty 
conversation; not taunting, and not malicious teasing. It is 
*understood* by both parties to be ever-so-slightly facetious; if one 
party of a conversation, or both, is completely serious in what they 
are saying, then it is not banter. Banter is conducted--and this is 
highly important, to my mind--*deliberately, in play, and for the 
amusement of the banterers.* An exchange that is funny to one of the 
characters, and not to the other (such as one-sided teasing, or 
straight-man, funny-man) is not banter, because banter is 
*intrinsically* reciprocal. An exchange where both of the characters 
is being amusing, but neither of them knows it, is not banter, 
because banter is intentional. If you say a funny thing in all 
seriousness, then you aren't bantering, because banter is 
intentional, it *has* to be--*no one ever bantered accidently.* (And 
by the way, it's not always sexually charged, though it certainly can 
be. Two friends can banter.)

Banter is rather like a highly-stylized 17th century dance. Or, at 
its sharper extremes, like fencing. But it is always a form of *play.*


So, on with my take on the examples. 

>Here's one where Ron feeds Hermione the straight line: 

>"And you could ask your parents if they know who Flamel is," said 
>Ron. "It'd be safe to ask them." 

>"Very safe, as they're both dentists," said Hermione. 

This is certainly cute, but it's not banter; it's not reciprocal. Ron 
says something serious, Hermione comes back with a rather humorous 
response. But, IIRC, the scene ends there. It's not like Ron picks up 
on Hermione's line and runs with it. *That* would be banter. This is 
just a clever response to an honest question. 


>Here's one where they do a quick-fire Pat and Mike routine: 

>Speaking quietly so tht no one else would hear, Harry told the other 
>two about Snape's sudden, sinister desire to be a Quidditch referee. 

>"Don't play," said Hermione at once. 

>"Say you're ill," said Ron. 

>"Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. 

>"Really break your leg," said Ron. 

But. . . they're both in dead earnest. They're not aware of saying 
anything funny. Banter is intentional, and they're really *not* 
intending to be funny. They're trying to tell their joint best friend 
how to avoid (they think) grievous bodily harm. It's funny to the 
reader, but it's not intended by the speakers to amuse. It's not 
*playful.*

>Here's one where Hermione feeds Ron the straight line: 

>"So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to 
>Snape?" said Hermione in alarm. 

>"It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron. 

Again, not really banter. Firstly, Hermione is serious. More than 
that, Hermione is "in alarm." Have you ever in your life heard of 
someone *bantering in alarm?* No? Thought not. The humorous remark is 
entirely one-sided, and, as with the "dentists" example, the scene 
ends here, so we don't know how Hermione responded. I kind of doubt 
she suddenly started bantering. I *hope* she didn't. Secondly, a more 
general point: when you say "Hermione feeds Ron the straight 
line". . . well, that's half true. See, if they were bantering, 
Hermione might indeed say something dead-pan, and hang a minute, wait 
for Ron to catch her up on it, play along with her, and sass 
something back. (See, I really *love* banter. That's why I bothered 
to write this ridiculous post.) It often does happen, in banter, that 
one person *does* feed the other the straight line. But here, 
Hermione isn't really feeding Ron anything. *JKR* is. But Hermione 
isn't. She is simply asking an alarmed question, and, actually, she 
asks it of *Harry.* (Harry spoke right before her remark.; she 
interupted him.) She isn't feeding Ron anything. Or Harry, obviously. 
Again, there is no intent to banter here, and I know this is getting 
annoying, but you cannot banter accidently. Any more then you can 
*fence* accidently. (Well, I s'pose you could *try*. . .)

>All of the above were from PS/SS. Here is one from CoS, where 
>Ron "wins" again: 

>Most Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take the 
>note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. 

>"I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. 

>"Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting 
>it at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll 
>sign anything if it stands still long enough." 

Not banter. Hermione, again, is in dead earnest. Moony, but in dead 
earnest. And she's not even *addressing* Ron. Ron is also, in a way, 
in dead earnest. At any rate, he's certainly not playing along with 
Hermione in any sense. He is making a rude and utterly true and 
really quite witty remark about the guy she's crushing on. He's not 
bantering with her. (Notice, by the way, the preposition--please do 
notice, 'cause I only just thought of this. The preposition used with 
the verb "banter" is "with." We don't say "He bantered *at* her." We 
say "He bantered *with* her." Banter is a mutual thing.) Anyway, he's 
really impatient here: "wrenching. . .thrusting. . . "Oh, come on." 
I'm not sure that you can banter impatiently, either. 

>From PoA: 

>"No," said Hermione shortly. "Have either of you seen my copy of 
>Numerology and Gramatica?" 

>"Oh, yeah, I borrowed it for a bit of bedtime reading," said Ron, 
>but very quietly. 

Oh, now, come off it. First: again, this is entirely one-sided. 
Hermione is in dead earnest, so--say it along with me, boys and  
girls!--she is *not bantering.* And she's talking to both of the 
boys, and is again not solely addressing Ron. Second: here's the key--
 "said Ron, *but very quietly.*" (Emphasis is obviously mine.) He 
doesn't even want her to hear him--or that's what *I* always assumed 
the "but very quietly" meant. Harry is the only one to hear that 
line. I mean, in a way, Ron is *talking to Harry.* It reminds me of 
Ron's remarks in Divination, actually. 

"And do you know what I saw there, my dears?" 
"An ugly old bat in out-size specs?"

Here, Ron isn't addressing Hermione any more than he's addressing 
Trelawny in Divination. (And he's not bantering with *her* either.) 
If he's not even addressing Hermione, he'll have a job bantering with 
her. It's pretty darn hard to banter with someone you're not even 
*addressing.* And if Hermione had heard him, do you think she'd play 
along? Or do you think she'd snap at him? 

>And one where Hermione gets the funny line: 

>"I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before 
>breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies." 

>"But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!" 
>said Ron. 

>"I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like this 
>one...."<snip> 

>"...Yeah, I've been thinking about them too," said Ron. "Harry, 
>you've got to come and stay with us. I'll fix it up with Mum and 
>Dad, then I'll call you. I know how to use the fellytone now --" 

>"A telephone, Ron," said Hermione. "Honestly, *you* should take 
>Muggle Studies next year...." 

This time, I honestly don't think *either* of them is trying to be 
funny. I mean, Ron isn't--we know he doesn't know the proper 
pronunciation. And I never thought that Hermione was joshing him--
given her extremely studious nature, I've always assumed she was 
completely serious. They are not (my fingers are at least as bored as 
you are) bantering.

>In GoF, there are so many it's hard to choose. Here are a few of my 
>favorites: 


>"Come off it," said Ron, starting to laugh. "Durmstrang's got to be 
>about the same size as Hogwarts -- how are you going to hide a great 
>big castle?" 

>"But Hogwarts is hidden," said Hermione, in surprise. "Everyone 
>knows that... well, everyone who's read Hogwarts, A History, 
>anyway." 

>"Just you, then," said Ron. 

Again, Hermione isn't--I'm noticing a pattern here. I honestly didn't 
know that there would be one. But I think there is. Hermione says 
something serious, to Ron or to someone else, and Ron makes a smart 
remark. Now, don't get me wrong; I *enjoy* Ron's smart remarks. But 
Ron makes those sorts of remarks to Harry sometimes, too. I just 
randomly flipped open COS, and found:

"Harry looked at Ron, bewildered.
'*That* looks more like Goyle,' said Ron. 'That's how he looks every 
time a teacher asks him a question.'"

And think about all his Divination commentary, and the things he says 
about the skrewts. Ron *always* makes smart remarks. He is Fred and 
George's brother, after all.  That's just Ron. Of course he does that 
to Hermione as well. But she doesn't usually respond in kind, does 
she. (Actually, does she *ever* respond in kind? Playing back at 
him?) I mean, it's all pretty one-sided here, isn't it? And in your 
example above, again, *Hermione isn't playing along.* *This is not 
banter.*

>"You're eating again, I notice," said Ron, watching Hermione adding 
>liberal amounts of jam to her toast too. 

>"I've decided there are better ways of making a stand about elf 
>rights," said Hermione haughtily. 

>"Yeah... and you were hungry," said Ron, grinning. 

Same as above: Hermione's not playing. And have you ever heard of 
anyone bantering "haughtily?"

>Here's a nice one: 

>"Well, at least the skrewts are small," said Ron as they made their 
>way back up to the castle for lunch an hour later. 

>"They are now," said Hermione in an exasperated voice, "but once 
>Hagrid's found out what they eat, I expect they'll be six feet 
>long." 

>"Well, that won't matter if they turn out to cure seasickness or 
>something, will it?" said Ron, grinning slyly at her. 

>"You know perfectly well I only said that to shut Malfoy up," said 
>Hermione. "As a matter of fact I think he's right. The best thing to 
>do would be to stamp on the lot of them before they start attacking 
>us all." 

This is closer. At least they're having an exchange. But does 
Hermione rise to Ron's (rather delightful) tease? Does she return his 
sly grin? No, she does not. In fact, she says "You know perfectly 
well," as if she doesn't even *know* she's being teased. And after 
she says "You know perfectly well," she goes on to re-iterate her 
honest opinion. (If she were bantering, wouldn't she say something 
like: "No, well you're right: *that's* true!" and gone on about the 
potential marvelous uses of the skrewt, as Harry laughed and Ron 
tried to top her with ever-more-outrageous suggestions? I swear, if 
R/H ever gave us a *single scene* like that, then I would welcome it 
with open arms. As I said before, I do dearly love banter.)

>Ah, I'm having to leave such good ones out -- there are too many. 
>The bouncing ferret one, the Cedric/Lockhart one... But I can't 
>leave this one out: 

>"Hello," she said, "I've just finished!" 

>"So have I!" said Ron triumphantly, throwing down his quill. 

>Hermione sat down, laid the things she was carrying in an empty 
>armchair, and pulled Ron's predictions toward her. 

>"Not going to have a very good month, are you?" she said 
>sardonically as Crookshanks curled up in her lap. 

>"Ah well, at least I'm forewarned," Ron yawned. 

>"You seem to be drowning twice," said Hermione. 

>"Oh am I?" said Ron, peering down at his predictions. "I'd better 
>change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging hippogriff." 

>"Don't you think it's a bit obvious you've made these up?" said 
>Hermione. 

>"How dare you! said Ron, in mock outrage. "We've been working like 
>house-elves here!" 

>Hermione raised her eyebrows. 

>"It's just an expression!" said Ron hastily. 

Now *that* is something like banter. (That entire scene, btw, is 
utterly wonderful.) Except for the house-elf exchange at the end: 
Hermione's really not kidding about *that.* (Remember her 'nasty look 
at Ron?')

>That is some top-quality bantering there! 

It's not a bit bad. But I honestly do think it's the only one you've 
mentioned that qualifies, so far. 

>Notice how they've improved in both quality and length since the 
>first book? For only fourteen, especially. And, look, it continues: 


>"Not spew," said Hermione impatiently. "It's S-P-E-W. Stands for the 
>Society for the Protection of Elvish Welfare." 

>"Never heard of it," said Ron. 

>"Well, of course you haven't," said Hermione briskly, "I've only 
>just started it." 

>"Yeah?" said Ron in mild surprise. "How many members have you got?" 

>"Well -- if you two join -- three," said Hermione. 

>"And you think we want to walk around wearing badges saying 'spew,' 
>do you?" said Ron. 

AAAAAARR-AAAAAARRRGH!! 

Honestly, not *again!* Hermione is not playing along! Look at the 
*adverbs,* for the love of Mike! There's "impatiently," 
and "briskly," and, in the line right after you end your 
quotage, "hotly." No one banters impatiently! or briskly! or hotly! 
They are not bantering; they are *bickering!* They. Are. Not. 
Bantering. 

(Have you ever noticed that, when you see a word a lot of times, it 
stops making any sense? Banter. BANTER BANTER BANTER BANTER. 

Ahem.)  

>If JKR intends Hermione to end up with Harry, she should NOT be 
>giving her this kind of chemistry with Ron. 

Ah. Now here we get to one of the Great Divisions (there are many) 
between the R/Hers and the H/Hers. The R/Hers think that the argument 
between Ron and Hermione is a form of banter. They think that Ron and 
Hermione both enjoy the arguing. As they see it, Ron and Hermione 
have a frank and light and strong relationship that is openly 
expressed in their frank and light and strong and spark-beladen and 
mutually enjoyable hashing-things-out. 

The H/Hers--or, rather, this H/Her--see it another way. Here's how I 
see the arguments between Ron and Hermione. She is being serious, and 
he teases her like he teases everyone and everything else. She either 
can't quite tell that he's teasing, or gets mad at him when he does. 
Look at how frequently she reacts to his remarks impatiently; he is 
making her *lose her patience.* Ron does enjoy the arguing, at least 
when it's just at the "teasing-Hermione" stage. But she doesn't enjoy 
it. And so she snaps at him, which irritates him, because she *just 
won't lighten up,* and so *he* gets mad, and they just end up taking 
pot-shots at each other. He *always* barbs her--which is pretty easy 
really; I love Hermione, but she's *prickly*--and she *always* rises 
to the bait. (Rising to the bait, btw, is not at all the same thing 
as "playing along." Rising to the bait is not a good thing, in a 
relationship.) And neither of them ever lets the other get away with 
anything. It's not romantic; it's exhausting. It's like the Twins and 
Percy, almost. And I really do think that it's significant that Harry 
got so tired of their--what's the word used? Is it "sniping?"--that 
he goes to the Owlery to get away from it. I know, I know, it's been 
cited a hundred times--but still. 

Banter is not so unpleasant to listen to. (Good banter is actually a 
*treat* to listen to.) 

>Listen to the timing on this one: 

>"What's that?" said Ron, pointing at a large dish of some sort of 
>shellfish stew that stood beside a large steak-and-kidney pudding. 

>"Bouillabaisse," said Hermione. 

>"Bless you," said Ron. 

>"It's French," said Hermione. "I had it on holiday summer before 
>last. It's very nice." 

>"I'll take your word for it," said Ron, helping himself to black 
>pudding. 

Hermione's not trying to banter. She's just matter-of-factly 
informing him. Even when Ron says "Bless you," an opening for banter 
if ever there was one, she acts like she *hasn't even heard him,* and 
just continues with her explanation. 

>Here's one where Hermione gets the last word: 

>"But I had my wand hidden up my sleeve," he assured Padma Patil, who 
>seemed to be a lot keener on Ron now that he was getting so much 
>attention and was making a point of talking to him every time they 
>passed in the corridors. "I could've taken those mer-idiots any time 
>I wanted." 

>"What were you going to do, snore at them?" said Hermione waspishly. 

Ron isn't bantering with Hermione; he wasn't even speaking to her, he 
was speaking to Padma. And Hermione wasn't bantering with him; you 
don't banter "waspishly." "Waspishly," is not playful, it's 
reprimanding. 

And one for Ron: 

>"Aren't you two ever going to read Hogwarts, A History?" 

>"What's the point?" said Ron. "You know it by heart, we can just ask 
>you." 

Hermione, *again,* is in dead earnest. She is also speaking to both 
of the boys. Ron, *again,* is simply teasing her. And I don't know 
for sure, because I couldn't find this quote in GOF, but I am willing 
to bet that after Ron's line, Hermione, *again,* refuses to respond 
to him on his terms, and either ignores his remark or snaps at him 
for it. I am at any rate willing to bet that she doesn't start 
*bantering* with him. 

Look, I'm sorry, honestly, I know I'm starting to sound rather 
sourable here, but don't you ever get *tired* of the way they 
interact? I mean, Ron gets some good lines in sometimes, but I 
sometimes do think, after I've read the two of them for a while, that 
I probably would have gone up to the Owlery with Harry. 

>And another one for Hermione: 

>You can't Disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds, haven't I told you 
>enough times?" said Hermione. 

>"Okay... how's this for a theory," said Ron excitedly. "Krum 
>attacked Crouch -- no, wait for it -- and then Stunned himself!" 

>"And Mr. Crouch evaporated, did he?" said Hermione coldly. 

>"Oh yeah..." 

Ron's excited, Ron's trying out a theory, Hermione's mad at him for 
implying Krum's involvement, so she *corrects him.* "Coldly." There 
is no bantering in sight. 

There is seldom any bantering in sight, with these two. Their 
exchanges may be enjoyable to the reader, but they are not enjoyable 
to Ron and Hermione. 

The real reason I wanted that Guitarist poem up there was just for 
the sake of the last line, which I love, and which kept coming into 
my head, as I was thinking about banter. 

"Before they started, he and she, to play." 

Ron and Hermione just aren't playing. 


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Ebony reached inside her pocket, and fished out a match box. 

"Um. . . Eb?" asked Derannimer uncertainly.

Ebony looked up from the shining black cannon. "Yeah?"

"Mind if I do that?"

Ebony smiled, and handed Derannimer the matchbox. "Be my guest."


Derannimer (who must get back down to the Bay, before the Captain 
gets mad at her, but who quite likes the view from up here)