Banter and other SHIP subjects (was TBAY/SHIP: Avast Maties! or: on the S.S. pumpkin pie)

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 50469

Hi all --

Derannimer, who has just been promoted to First Mate, Special Class on the S.S. Pumpkin Pie (Penny tosses gold bars down to Captain Cindy's destroyer, where they land with a clunk at Derannimer's feet ........ Penny scurries rapidly away from the railing as she registers the look of complete annoyance on Captain Cindy's face), said:

<<<<Oh Angua.  I'm sorry (well, no I'm not) but I have to take a great deal of issue with your examples. All of 'em. 

First off, though, a definition, so you know my sense of the topic, 
and where I'm coming from: banter is reciprocal, playful, witty 
conversation; not taunting, and not malicious teasing.>>>>>>>

And later, after a brilliant take on what bantering is and is not:

<<<<<There is seldom any bantering in sight, with these two. Their 
exchanges may be enjoyable to the reader, but they are not enjoyable 
to Ron and Hermione. 

The real reason I wanted that Guitarist poem up there was just for 
the sake of the last line, which I love, and which kept coming into 
my head, as I was thinking about banter. 

"Before they started, he and she, to play." 

Ron and Hermione just aren't playing.>>>>>>>>>

I couldn't agree more.  I think the descriptive language that JKR so often uses when describing the Ron and Hermione interactions *is* telling.  Sometimes I read their interaction as "sniping" and "bickering," which I personally find irritating, but I can concede that some people derive enjoyment out of it.  But, quite alot of R/Hr interaction is depicted in a negative way by JKR, through her word choice.  "Irritably," "snapped," "resentfully," "angrily," "waspishly," "coldly," sputtered in indignation," just to name a few.   

I also like the pattern that Derannimer picked up on.  I think you're right that Hermione says something serious to Ron or Ron and Harry or to someone else, and Ron responds with a smart-ass comment.  I too think Ron is funny (sometimes, but not always).  But, he and Hermione are definitely *not* engaging in banter or verbal courtship of any kind, IMO.   

I said: >>The shipping ambiguities will always be 
somewhat ambiguous.  It's not as though the characters can be 
shown  to be in love since PS/SS .... they will change as they 
mature.  I  also don't buy the notion that the ships have been 
"destined" since  PS/SS (Ginny as the first girl Harry sees and 
Hermione's interaction with Ron over the smudged nose).  <<

Pippin responded: <<<<Sorry, I'm not following this. Do you mean that you don't think JKR had worked out the resolution of the "ships" plot thread when she wrote PS/SS?>>>>>>>>

Well, you know, if the shipping is just a minor, humorous subplot .... in the background, nothing too gritty ...... then maybe she hadn't (and hasn't!) yet fully worked it out.  If, OTOH, it's more integral to the overall plot for some reason, then, yes, I'd expect she had it more or less plotted out at the time PS/SS was written.  <eg> 

<<<<Or do you mean, she had it worked out, but didn't intend anything 
in the first book to  indicate  future romantic possibilities,  in 
which case, with this reader, she failed miserably.>>>>>>>

Pippin, that analysis only works if you buy R/H and/or H/G, which I do not.  <g>  Your read of PS/SS would comport with a R/H & H/G ending.  Mine would not.  But, I do seriously doubt that she *intended* to convey a destiny for those two couples in PS, even if that is how it will turn out.  The reasons are myriad, but not the least of which might be that I truly don't think she's going to send a message that two sets of teenagers can essentially be set up for life at age 17/18, with the foundation for their destiny laid out at age 11 (or 10 in the case of Ginny).  The simple reality of contemporary life is that teenage romances transitioning into successful healthy marriages is rare and becoming even more rare with every passing year.  The divorce statistics in the UK are particularly alarming from what I understand.  

<<<<<I don't really see how, if the story does end R/H, anyone 
who's cognizant of the ending will be able to read PS/SS and not 
see authorial indications of potential attraction. Note that it's 
attraction I'm talking about, not liking or love.>>>>>>>

I don't *see* any attraction there.  None.  They *hate* each other (Ron and Hermione that is).  Harry is very embarrassed by Ginny's display of hero-worship.  

Shifting to Angua on JKR's personal life:

<<<<<I'm queasy about even bringing up JKR's personal life, but I'll just 
dip my toe into it.  As best I can tell, we know of five 
relationships in JKR's life which might influence her decisions:

1 - Her parents' marriage, which had "sparks" and arguments, and was 
(mostly) happy.>>>>>>>

Source please?  On the "sparks" and "arguments"?  The Smith biography of JKR gives completely the opposite impression is the reason I ask.  The Rowlings seemed to be the quiet, retiring, bookish types, according to the myriad accounts of their lives that Smith researched.  Peter Rowling was described as a "quiet chap who took things seriously."  

<<<<2 - Her friendship with Sean Harris, Ron's inadvertent model, which I 
have never heard had either "sparks" or arguments, and which she 
still treasures today.>>>>>>>>

I don't it was inadvertent; I think she intentionally based Ron, *in part,* on her friend Sean.  

<<<<5 - Her current marriage, about which I personally know nothing at 
all.>>>>>>>>

Yep, me either.  The only thing I know is that Neil Murray bears a rather striking resemblance to what an adult Harry Potter might look like.  <eg>  [And, no, I'm by *no* means the only one to comment on that one...... half the journalists in Britain said as much apparently]

On possible reasons why JKR might have chosen to not answer the question about Hermoine liking Ron with a more straight-forward answer, Angua conjectured:

<<<<1 - She might have thought the questioner had not yet read GoF (since 
she didn't know the obvious) or that some of the chat participants 
hadn't, and didn't want to spoil it.>>>>>>

Since this chat was sometime in 2001, isn't that a bit unlikely really?

<<<<Whatever the reason, my observation of JKR tells me that, however 
cagey she might be, she tells the truth.  If she says the answer is 
in GoF, she means that the answer is in GoF.>>>>>>

You might want to review some of the pre-GoF chats.  We were all fairly certain from those chats that Harry would actually date Cho Chang ..... and well, we all know how that turned out.  

Back to all this blushing, Angua said:

<<<<Sure, Krum could have said all this, Hermione blushed, and the blush 
faded, before Harry got there.  But if JKR had wanted to show 
Hermione blushing, there was an opportunity for Harry to see it.>>>>>>

At a distance.  :--)  Whatever.  Fact is, we don't *know* if Hermione did or did not blush when Krum asked her to visit him in Bulgaria.  I think you're reaching a bit on this one.

On the blushing when Harry asks her if she didn't want to go to Hogsmeade with Ron, Angua concedes, partially:

<<<<No, I believe that she blushed because Harry caught her in 
subterfuge.  I'm just saying -- when R/H happens and we look back for 
foreshadowing, we will see that JKR didn't miss a beat.  She put it 
EVERYWHERE.  Even when it's just a sly reference, and doesn't really 
mean anything.>>>>>>>>>

If she's blushing because Harry is caught her up in subterfuge, as you concede (thanks!), then there is NO R/H foreshadowing.  Her blush (and her intent) have nothing whatsoever to do with romantic interest in Ron.  You conceded as much.

<<<<<I do think, however, that the fact that JKR has set Ron and Hermione 
up as a sort of comedy duo means something in terms of her intentions 
toward their future pairing.  It is just one of many, many hints that 
we have.>>>>>>>>

A comedy duo, eh?  You might want to take a close look at Derannimer's post on the bantering.  I agree with her.  It's not banter or verbal foreplay and certainly not setting them up as a comic duo.  Not IMO anyway.

Penny
(who'll provide some H/H interaction examples at a later time ....... I promise it to show Harry and Hermione interacting positively and having fun together and perhaps even bantering a bit, though bantering is really not their style and that's *okay* .....not every successful couple needs to be skilled in the fine art of bantering after all (and Ron and Hermione certainly aren't))
















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