SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects

[derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50601

Angua wrote: 

>yes, I thought that Ron was trying to be funny with "really break 
>your leg" and "it'll be gone >by next Tuesday" and "bless you" 

Here we go again. . . 

1. Erm. . . you know, since long, *long* before I thought about 
SHIPping one way or the other, I've always thought that "really break 
your leg" was meant in all seriousness. I mean, given Ron is talking 
to his best friend, who nearly died during a prior match, and the guy 
that (Ron thinks) nearly killed said best friend is going to be 
refereeing the next Quidditch match. For all the Trio know, "Snape's 
sudden, sinister desire to become a Quidditch referee" is going to 
wind up killing Harry. (I love that referee line, btw.) I guess I've 
never assumed that Ron was joking here. I don't see why he would be. 

2. And as for "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," I don't see why you 
included it in your original post at all. You initially presented 
these examples as cases of two-sided bantering exchanges between Ron 
and Hermione. The "It'll be gone by next Tuesday" line isn't an 
example of Ron and Hermione *anything.* Here's what happened: Harry 
told Ron and Hermione about the conversation he overheard between 
Snape and Quirrel. Hermione interrupted him in mid-sentence, and 
asked: "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrel stands 
up to Snape?" (Hermione is talking to *Harry* here. Harry is the one 
who was talking, Harry was the one with the knowledge to answer her 
question. Hermione isn't talking to Ron.) Ron then says, to the other 
two "It'll be gone by next Tuesday." 

So, Harry explains situation, Hermione cuts in and asks Harry a 
question about it, Ron makes a wry, resigned remark about it to Harry 
and Hermione. 

How do you get an R/H moment out of *that?* This is a great example 
of a *Trio* moment actually--with Harry the protagonist; Hermione the 
precise, summarizing and clarifying; and Ron the guy with attitude, 
making a smart remark (which I've always enjoyed) about the 
hopelessness of the situation. 

3. "Bless you." Well, yes, I've always assumed Ron was trying to be 
funny here too, actually. As I said in my previous post, Ron's "Bless 
you," is an opening for banter if ever there was one. But Hermione 
doesn't seem to be trying to help Ron be funny, does she? She just 
continues with her explanation, serious as ever. That was actually my 
point here. Once again, Ron makes a funny remark, and once again, 
Hermione ignores him. 

Right? Right. 

Angua also wrote: 

>You are 100% right about one thing. Ron and Hermione's humorous 
>exchanges have an *edge* to them. There are hurt feelings and danger 
>there. They don't do bland, inoffensive "witty conversation" in the 
>manner of Regis and Kathy Lee. Thank God!

(Angua, if you were even *insinuating* that I could even *tolerate* 
Regis and Kathy Lee, then I will personally come beat you to death 
with a shovel. After all, there *is* a limit.) ; )

Here's my problem with that "edge" explanation. If you're trying to 
hurt the other person's feelings, then I don't see how it's 
a "humorous exchange." I'm sorry, but I honestly don't. And if you're 
*not* trying to hurt the other person's feelings, but you keep doing 
it anyway, then you probably don't understand the other person very 
well. 

Now if Ron and Hermione both enjoyed that sort of thing, then I say, 
fine. Let 'em have at it. But I really don't see them both enjoying 
it. Ron does, I think. But I don't know about Hermione. 

Whcih brings us to. . . well, look. Here's the thing. I would really 
like for all of us to try and make some progress in this argument, 
because it really *is* like a hydra. And I personally don't think 
it's very elucidating. 

So let me set out a problem for you. 

--------

FIRST of all, I think we can probably *all* agree that Ron does enjoy 
(most of the time) his arguments with Hermione. 

Okay?

SECOND, I *think* we can probably all agree on one fairly obvious 
statement: either Hermione *does* enjoy her exchanges with Ron, or 
she *doesn't.* 

Right?

Duh. 

THIRD. Now. If Hermione does enjoy the. . . well, you'd call 
it "bantering," and I'd call it "bickering," so let's just call 
it "The Exchanges." Okay? 

Right. 

As I was saying, I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione 
*does* enjoy The Exchanges, then The Exchanges *are not* a problem. 
(Though they are still evidently unpleasant for other people to 
listen to, so Ron and Hermione might want to tone it down a bit.) If 
both Hermione and Ron do enjoy The Exchanges (TE), then TE are simply 
a good-natured facet of a very frank and open relationship. Then TE 
are a *positive* thing in their relationship. 

So that is the R/H position on TE. 

So on to FOURTH: I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione 
*doesn't* enjoy TE, then TE *are* a problem. If Ron enjoys TE and 
Hermione doesn't, then TE are a manifestation of some. . . 
*disconnect,* some lack of understanding, in their relationship. Then 
TE are a *negative* thing in their relationship. 

So that is the H/H position on TE.  

So then, if Hermione enjoys TE (R/H), then they are a positive thing. 
If Hermione does not enjoy TE (H/H), then they are a negative thing.  

Right? Right. 

Now I *know* why I believe that Hermione doesn't enjoy them: it's the 
reason that Penny put forward a few posts back. 

>If [JKR] continues to stress words 
>like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered 
>indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give 
>us  the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact very 
>positively during their "bantering."

This is true, Angua. JKR *does* tend to use extremely negative words 
to describe the way that Hermione reacts to Ron's teasing. (Although 
I think that that "savagely" actually belonged to Ron; you can 
scratch that one if you like to.) But my point is that H/Hers have a 
pretty objective reason for thinking that Hermione doesn't enjoy TE. 
There are clues in JKR's diction and description to suggest that she 
doesn't. JKR uses very negative words here. 

But I *don't* know why you think that Hermione *does* enjoy TE. So 
please tell me: what *are* you picking up on, in the text--in word 
choice, description, ect.--that makes you think Hermione enjoys TE? 
Are there a lot of positive words that JKR also uses in TE 
situations, that balance/outnumber the negative ones?    




Derannimer (who means it. *Honestly,* can't we agree on *anything* 
here?)