SHIP: Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects

[anguaorc <fausts@attglobal.net>]

No: HPFGUIDX 50643

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer <susannahlm at y...>" 
<susannahlm at y...> wrote:
> Here's my problem with that "edge" explanation. If you're trying to 
> hurt the other person's feelings, then I don't see how it's 
> a "humorous exchange." I'm sorry, but I honestly don't. And if 
you're 
> *not* trying to hurt the other person's feelings, but you keep 
doing 
> it anyway, then you probably don't understand the other person very 
> well. 

I don't necessarily think they're *trying* to hurt each others' 
feelings, but the risk of hurt feelings is ever-present.

Let me try to explain this clearly.  I believe that Ron and Hermione 
have a friendship, which they both enjoy and value, and which has a 
competitive bantering-or-bickering element to it.  Ron HAS AN 
ADVANTAGE in that he is naturally funnier than Hermione and quite 
quick-witted, but Hermione HAS AN ADVANTAGE in that she is smart and 
logical, and doesn't say stupid things as much as Ron does.

I believe that each of them is particularly vulnerable to being hurt 
by the other one.  Ron is vulnerable to being hurt by Hermione 
because he is insecure about his accomplishments and abilities (in 
comparison to his siblings) and she is a ferociously accomplished 
person who is quick to notice and criticize errors (e.g. doing 
Wingardium Leviosa wrong).  Hermione is vulnerable to being hurt by 
Ron because she is insecure about her place in the wizarding world, 
her ability to make friends, her "coolness," appearance, etc. and Ron 
is securely within the mainstream of wizarding society and has a 
quick, witty (and sadly blunt) tongue (e.g. "she's a nightmare, 
honestly").  To put it more simply, Ron wants to be ADMIRED by 
Hermione and Hermione wants to be LIKED by Ron.

You can see these two themes stated from their very first meetings 
("it's not very good, is it?", "can we help you with something?"), 
and continuing strongly on through to GoF.  I see a lot of their 
bickering/bantering as an exploration and working through of these 
issues.  There is tension there, but there is pleasure as well.  Ron 
*challenges* Hermione to keep up with him in verbal wit, and mostly 
she DOES.  Hermione *challenges* Ron to be competent, smart, and 
effective, and mostly he IS.  For each of them, being accepted by the 
other is very valuable, because the other one has the qualities they 
wish they had.  But, likewise, being rejected by the other is 
especially hurtful -- and it *has* occurred, on both sides.

I see that they hurt each other, but they keep coming back for more.  
They're getting something out of it, and they seem to want *more* out 
of it -- more acceptance, more affirmation.  As to whether Hermione, 
in particular, enjoys the verbal sparring -- I can't help thinking 
that if she didn't, she'd STOP.  Why spend literally pages and pages 
of book-time on something she doesn't enjoy doing?

The fact that their exchanges are often humorous is, I think, more 
important TO THE READER than it is to Ron and Hermione.  We readers 
(are supposed to) like seeing Ron and Hermione interact, because it 
creates humor, which most readers like.  But they don't just create 
humor by zinging each other, though that is part of it.  They also 
create humor by a kind of quick-fire back-and-forth talking, as in 
the "really break your leg" example and the "bless you" example.  JKR 
is giving them comic timing, and it gives the reader the impression 
that Ron and Hermione are a good couple, because we enjoy reading 
that kind of stuff.  In other words, I consider the fact that their 
interchanges are humorous as evidence of author intention, rather 
than thinking that they'll fall in love because they make beautiful 
comedy together.

But, on the other hand, we readers are not completely satisfied.  Ron 
was really obnoxious to Hermione before the Yule Ball, and we wanted 
to see him suffer for it (which, thank goodness, we DID).  Hermione 
is brutal to Ron sometimes when he says stupid things, and we'd like 
to see him excel and impress her.  There is a continuing tension in 
their relationship, and we'd like to see it resolved by the end of 
the series, just as many of us would like to see a resolution of the 
tension between Fred/George and Percy, Severus and Sirius, Harry and 
Draco, Harry and Voldemort, Harry and the Dursleys, etc.  Now, 
tension can be resolved in two ways -- by conciliation or by conflict 
and a clear winner.  We expect the Harry/Voldemort tension to be 
resolved the second way.  Some people may expect the Ron/Hermione to 
be resolved the second way (with Hermione the "winner" and Ron cast 
into the outer darkness).  But I expect the Ron/Hermione tension to 
be resolved with conciliation, of which romantic intimacy is a common 
subtype.

Now, it may seem that I'm just a crazed shipper here, overanalyzing 
what is meant to be an unimportant relationship between two minor 
characters.  But that can't be, because JKR herself spends so 
incredibly much space on their interactions.  She shows Ron and 
Hermione talking to each other ALL THE TIME.  She has set them up 
with all sorts of conflicts -- cat/rat, house-elves, Harry-going-to-
Hogsmeade, superstition/scepticism, rules/fun, etc. etc. etc.  Now, 
some of this is a literary device, to externalize and personalize the 
inner conflicts in Harry's mind (angel-on-the-shoulder style).  But 
it has also had the effect of greatly developing and elaborating the 
relationship between these two characters, and making it a 
relationship we care about.

Derannimer:
> FIRST of all, I think we can probably *all* agree that Ron does 
enjoy 
> (most of the time) his arguments with Hermione. 
> 
> Okay?
> 
> SECOND, I *think* we can probably all agree on one fairly obvious 
> statement: either Hermione *does* enjoy her exchanges with Ron, or 
> she *doesn't.* 
> 
> Right?
> 
> Duh. 

Angua:
I'm not meaning to drive you crazy here, but it is perfectly possible 
(and I believe true) that *sometimes* Hermione enjoys them and 
*sometimes* she doesn't.  No sane person could argue that Hermione 
enjoyed being yelled at by Ron about Crookshanks, for instance.  But 
surely even you would agree that she enjoys giggling at him about 
his "scarlet woman" remark.

I'm even mad enough to believe that some of them she can *enjoy* and 
*not enjoy* at the same time.  For instance, the "snoring" comment in 
front of Padma.  I believe that Hermione was honestly angry at Ron, 
and yet *also* enjoyed shutting him up with such a comprehensive snub.

Derannimer:
> THIRD. Now. If Hermione does enjoy the. . . well, you'd call 
> it "bantering," and I'd call it "bickering," so let's just call 
> it "The Exchanges." Okay? 

PLEASE don't think I'm saying that *all* their interchanges 
are "bantering"!  Ron and Hermione bicker all the time (Harry even 
says so), either mildly, like with Norbert's hatching, or intensely, 
like with the house-elves.  They also fight a time or two, and do a 
lot of teasing and a lot of normal talk, too.  "Bantering" is just 
*one* of their many types of interaction.

Derannimer:
> As I was saying, I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione 
> *does* enjoy The Exchanges, then The Exchanges *are not* a problem. 
> (Though they are still evidently unpleasant for other people to 
> listen to, so Ron and Hermione might want to tone it down a bit.) 

Angua:
Only *some* of them!  Harry doesn't like to hear them sniping about 
Crookshanks, or wasting time squabbling about house-elves in front of 
Sirius, but it's my impression that he quite enjoys hearing Ron 
teasing Hermione about the Blast-Ended Screwts or Hermione teasing 
Ron about skiving off his Divination homework.

Derannimer:
> So on to FOURTH: I think we can probably all agree that if Hermione 
> *doesn't* enjoy TE, then TE *are* a problem. If Ron enjoys TE and 
> Hermione doesn't, then TE are a manifestation of some. . . 
> *disconnect,* some lack of understanding, in their relationship. 
Then 
> TE are a *negative* thing in their relationship. 
> 
> So that is the H/H position on TE.  

Angua: 
And what if Ron enjoys some of them and doesn't enjoy some of them, 
and Hermione enjoys some of them and doesn't enjoy some of them?  
Because that is what I believe to be the case.

Derannimer:
> Now I *know* why I believe that Hermione doesn't enjoy them: it's 
the 
> reason that Penny put forward a few posts back. 
> 
> >If [JKR] continues to stress words 
> >like "savagely," "impatiently," "sputtered 
> >indignantly," "acidly," "coldly," "angrily," etc., she might give 
> >us  the impression that Ron and Hermione really don't interact 
very 
> >positively during their "bantering."
> 
> This is true, Angua. JKR *does* tend to use extremely negative 
words 
> to describe the way that Hermione reacts to Ron's teasing. 
(Although 
> I think that that "savagely" actually belonged to Ron; you can 
> scratch that one if you like to.) But my point is that H/Hers have 
a 
> pretty objective reason for thinking that Hermione doesn't enjoy 
TE. 
> There are clues in JKR's diction and description to suggest that 
she 
> doesn't. JKR uses very negative words here. 

Angua:
First, you are very right about 'savagely,' and -- moreover -- I can 
cite many, many other examples in their exchanges where 
the "negative" words are used to describe *Ron's* speech.  And yet 
you are able to believe that, on the whole, Ron enjoys their 
exchanges.  But you are not able to believe that, on the whole, 
Hermione enjoys their exchanges?

Derannimer:
> But I *don't* know why you think that Hermione *does* enjoy TE. So 
> please tell me: what *are* you picking up on, in the text--in word 
> choice, description, ect.--that makes you think Hermione enjoys TE? 
> Are there a lot of positive words that JKR also uses in TE 
> situations, that balance/outnumber the negative ones?    

Angua:
Yes, and I will cite them.  But I do want to emphasize that Hermione 
can enjoy the sparring, ON THE WHOLE, even though she doesn't enjoy 
it every single moment.  For instance, just dumbly, she can enjoy it 
when she's winning, and not enjoy it when she's losing.

But let me move on to my evidence:

1 - She starts it.  The first "zinger" that is said by either Ron or 
Hermione after they become friends is said by Hermione ("very safe, 
as they're both dentists" PS/SS Ch.12).  There is no characterization 
of Hermione's tone here, but, ummm, if not for enjoyment, why else 
would she do it?  Ron hasn't insulted her or anything -- he just made 
a helpful suggestion.


2 - She doesn't get mad when Ron does it (PS/SS Ch. 16):

"Why me?"

"It's obvious," said Ron.  "You can pretend to be waiting for 
Professor Flitwick, you know."  He put on a high voice, "Oh Professor 
Flitwick, I'm so worried, I think I got question fourteen b wrong..."

"Oh, shut up," said Hermione, but she agreed to go and watch out for 
Snape.

Yes, I realize that "oh, shut up" could be considered negative, but 
to *me* it sounds good-humored.


3 - She keeps her cool when Ron does it (PoA. Ch. 4):

"I've still got ten Galleons," she said, checking her purse.  "It's 
my birthday in September, and Mum and Dad gave me some money to get 
myself an early birthday present."

"How about a nice *book*?" said Ron innocently.

"No, I don't think so," said Hermione composedly.  "I really want an 
owl...."

I would say 'composedly' is a positive-connotation word.


4 - Here is one that Hermione seems to enjoy very much, until it 
takes a turn in the end that she definitely *doesn't* like (PoA Ch. 
6):

"Harry," he said in a low, serious voice, "you haven't seen a great 
black dog anywhere, have you?"

"Yeah, I have," said Harry.  "I saw one the night I left the 
Dursleys."

Ron let his fork fall with a clatter.

"Probably a stray," said Hermione calmly.

Ron looked at Hermione as though she'd gone mad.

"Hermione, if Harry's seen a Grim, that's -- that's bad," he 
said.  "My -- my Uncle Bilius saw one and -- and he died twenty-four 
hours later!"

"Coincidence," said Hermione airily, pouring herself some pumpkin 
juice.

"You don't know what you're talking about!" said Ron, starting to get 
angry.  "Grims scare the living daylights out of most wizards!"

"There you are, then," said Hermione in a superior tone.  "They see 
the Grim and die of fright <snip>"

Ron mouthed wordlessly at Hermione, who ... <snip>

"I think Divination seems very woolly," she said, searching for her 
page.  "A lot of guesswork, if you ask me."

"There was nothing woolly about the Grim in that cup!" said Ron hotly.

"You didn't seem quite so confident when you were telling Harry it 
was a sheep," said Hermione coolly.

"Professor Trelawney said you didn't have the right aura!  You just 
don't like being rubbish at something for a change!"

He had touched a nerve.  Hermione slammed her Arithmancy book down on 
the table so hard that bits of meat and carrot flew everywhere.


Obviously, she didn't enjoy that last bit, when Ron turned the tables 
on her and got under her skin with a personal jibe.  But I would 
claim the words 'calmly,' 'airily,' 'in a superior tone,' 
and 'coolly' as having definite positive connotations.  Plus, you 
can't tell me she didn't enjoy making Ron "mouth wordlessly"!


5 - She likes that kind of humor when Ron does it to other people 
(PoA Ch. 15):

Professor Trelawney rustled past.

"Would anyone like me to help them interpret the shadowy portents 
within their Orb?" she murmured over the clinking of her bangles.

"I don't need help," Ron whispered.  "It's obvious what this means.  
There's going to be loads of fog tonight."

Both Harry and Hermione burst out laughing.


6 - She likes to be proved right (PoA Ch.22):

(from Sirius's letter) ...It was I who sent you the Firebolt --

"Ha!" said Hermione triumphantly.  "See!  I *told* you it was from 
him!"

"Yes, but he hadn't jinxed it, had he?" said Ron. 


The fact that she enjoys being proved right this time makes me think 
she enjoys other times when she is able to show that Ron is wrong, 
even when the text doesn't say 'triumphantly,' even when she 'snaps.'


7 - She speaks 'briskly' and 'haughtily' (GoF Ch. 13):

"Double Divination this afternoon," Harry groaned.... <snip>

"You should have given it up like me, shouldn't you?" said Hermione 
briskly, buttering herself some toast.  "Then you'd be doing 
something sensible like Arithmancy."

"You're eating again, I notice," said Ron, watching Hermione adding 
liberal amounts of jam to her toast too. 

"I've decided there are better ways of making a stand about elf 
rights," said Hermione haughtily. 

"Yeah... and you were hungry," said Ron, grinning. 


That whole passage gives me a positive feeling, and I can't believe 
Hermione didn't enjoy it.  It is the normal friendly banter (oops! I 
mean, ummm, Exchanges) between friends.  She started it, too -- 
jumping on Harry's remark.  And I see both "briskly" and "haughtily" 
as positive-connotation words in this context.


8 - She *admits* that she wanted to win an argument with Malfoy (GoF 
Ch. 13):

"Well, at least the skrewts are small," said Ron as they made their 
way back up to the castle for lunch an hour later. 

"They are now," said Hermione in an exasperated voice, "but once 
Hagrid's found out what they eat, I expect they'll be six feet long." 

"Well, that won't matter if they turn out to cure seasickness or 
something, will it?" said Ron, grinning slyly at her. 

"You know perfectly well I only said that to shut Malfoy up," said 
Hermione. "As a matter of fact I think he's right. The best thing to 
do would be to stamp on the lot of them before they start attacking 
us all." 


I believe it is quite clear that Hermione did not mind Ron's teasing 
here, since she calmly admitted his point.  They seem to both share 
the view that a little prevarication is perfectly okay, if it was 
useful in winning the argument with Malfoy.  It's like they both 
tacitly agree that arguing is a game they both like to play.


9 - Here is one that she CLEARLY enjoys:

"Miserable old bat," said Ron bitterly, as they joined the crowds 
descending the staircases back to the Great Hall and 
dinner.  "That'll take all weekend, it will..."

"Lots of homework?" said Hermione brightly, catching up with 
them.  "Professor Vector didn't give *us* any at all!"

"Well, bully for Professor Vector," said Ron moodily.


I'm sure I don't need to point out that 'brightly' is a positive-
connotation word.  Notice that Hermione has *created* the Arithmancy 
vs. Divination subject as an opportunity to tease the boys (see 
previous quote).  Just like Ron *chose* to tease Hermione for her not 
eating/eating/eating too fast.  They BOTH enjoy having something to 
tease about.


10 - She certainly enjoys successfully zinging *Malfoy* (GoF Ch. 23):

"You're joking, Weasley?" said Malfoy, behind them.  "You're not 
telling me someone's asked *that* to the ball?  Not the long-molared 
Mudblood?"

Harry and Ron both whipped around, but Hermione said loudly, waving 
to somebody over Malfoy's shoulder, "Hello, Professor Moody!"

Malfoy went pale and jumped backwards, looking wildly around for 
Moody, but he was still up at the staff table, finishing his stew.

"Twitchy little ferret, aren't you, Malfoy?" said Hermione 
scathingly, and she, Harry and Ron went up the marble staircase 
laughing heartily.


If she can enjoy that so much, it is hard for me to believe she 
didn't enjoy "What were you going to do, snore at them?" as well.


11 - I know I'm going on too long here, so here is just one last one 
(GoF Ch. 22):

...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class 
than adopt Harry.  Staring nastily around at them all, he informed 
them that he would be testing them on poison antidotes during the 
last lesson of the term.

"Evil, he is," Ron said bitterly that night in the Gryffindor common 
room.  "Springing a test on us on the last day.  Ruining the last bit 
of term with a whole load of revision."

"Mmm... you're not exactly straining yourself, though, are you?" said 
Hermione, looking at him over the top of her Potions notes....


I can't point to any positive words there, but I note that she gives 
Ron a mild "zing" when he has only been talking about Snape, not her 
(so she is the one who "starts it"), and that to me, her tone sounds 
relaxed and pleasant, as if she is enjoying herself.


So, that's my case that Hermione enjoys a good verbal sparring match 
as much as the next person.  


BTW, I promise not to imply again that you are a fan of Regis-and-
Kathy-Lee style "bantering."  But you know, the standard you defined 
in your first post was almost impossibly narrow:

> Banter is conducted--and this is 
> highly important, to my mind--*deliberately, in play, and for the 
> amusement of the banterers.* 
> 
> Banter is rather like a highly-stylized 17th century dance. Or, at 
> its sharper extremes, like fencing. But it is always a form of 
> *play.*

Offhand, the only couple I can think of outside of an Oscar Wilde 
play to reach those exalted heights is Nick and Nora Charles, and 
their dialogue was *very* artificial.  It is not really a product of 
the courtship stage of a relationship, but is really only achievable 
when two people are already secure in each other's affections.

Is this really something you expect Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger 
to already have mastered at the ages of eleven through fourteen?  *I* 
think they've made an awfully good start on it, especially in GoF, 
but give them a little time!

Even the dialogue in great movies such as "The Philadelphia Story" 
and "His Girl Friday" wouldn't meet your standards, because very 
often one of the participants is serious or angry or distracted, and -
- especially -- because they're NOT doing if for amusement, but to 
work out serious problems in their relationships (such as the fact 
that one of the participants is on the verge of marrying someone 
else!).  And yet, I had certainly always thought of those two movies 
as containing banter!  And, you know, "Much Ado About Nothing" would 
be disqualified for the same reason -- Beatrice and Benedick 
*weren't* doing it for amusement.


Angua