Cho

[Petra Pan]

No: HPFGUIDX 50652

I'm erring on the side of caution and 
snipping very little for the benefit 
of those who wasn't following this 
thread.

My regrets to those who has to 
retread old territory.

     *     *     *

Kelly L.:
> Personally, I've always liked Cho.  
> Admittedly, we don't know her 
> very well yet, but everything I've 
> seen of her has been good.  We 
> don't learn very much at all about 
> her during PoA, but during GoF 
> we get a couple of glimpses of her.  
> What do we see?  A girl who 
> doesn't wear the mean-spirited 
> "Cedric Diggory/Potter Stinks" 
> badges, even when all of her friends 
> do.  Even though it's possible that 
> she and Cedric were dating even
> then.  A girl who doesn't giggle at 
> Harry when he tries to ask
> her out, even when her friends do.  
> And a girl who is polite to
> Harry as she turns him down.  
> She has a sort of independence and
> dignity that I like; many teenage 
> girls are much more swayed by the
> crowd than she is.

Madeleine agrees:
> I think Cho makes a lot of major 
> choices and decisions that show a
> strength of character and maturity
> level that is not seen in many of
> the other characters.  She doesn't
> follow the crowd, she finds her own
> way through life.  Even if it means
> publically going against what others,
> including her friends are doing (ie.
> Cho not wearing the badge, even when
> she is surrounded by friends wearing
> badges).  I like Cho and I think she
> is an excellent role model.

I concur - Cho has yet to make a 
choice that speaks ill of her.  Having 
known a great many girls (NOT grown 
women really) who do choose to play at 
being the helpless damsel, I thought 
the following indicate that she is no 
simpering maiden.  Perhaps this is one 
of the reasons she's the only female 
seeker we know of, IIRC.

PoA ~~~~~~ US HB 189th page of 435

What with the promise of 
anti-dementor lessons from Lupin,
the thought that he might never 
have to hear his mother's death
again, and the fact that Ravenclaw 
flattened Hufflepuff in their
Quidditch match at the end of 
November, Harry's mood took 
definite upturn.

PoA ~~~~~~ UK PB 141st page of 317

[see note at end]

In the match between Ravenclaw & 
Hufflepuff, if this game follows the 
pattern typical of Hogwarts games, 
Cho grabbed the Snitch before Cedric 
did, who BTW didn't hold that against 
her the way the Gryffindor males had 
held his beating Harry to the Snitch 
against Cedric.

How these two competitors on the 
Quidditch pitch ended up hand in hand 
off the field in the next book is 
unknown to us.  But I am gratified to 
see at least one female besides 
Hermione who doesn't 'let the guy win' 
for the sake of playing to his ego.

[side note: yes, I do not think much 
of females who employ the 
time-'honored' and peer-approved 
technique for catching males - the 
bait-and-switch - mostly because 
I have heard this all too often from 
the crestfallen males: "But she was 
sooo perfect before our wedding!"

If it come to that, I don't think 
much of the males who fall for that 
technique either. <wicked grin>  
Buyer beware.]

Kathryn Wolber responds to Kelly's 
replay of my attempt to get 
clarification from Maria on her 
view of Cho:
> So far in the books, Cho isn't
> supposed to make decisions...she's
> *not* a main character. So you 
> don't like her because of how JKR
> decided to write her into the
> story?  That doesn't make sense.

Suspecting that there is sense here 
that has gone unexpressed is why I 
asked Maria those very pointed 
questions, y'know.  The post I 
responded to ended with what seemed 
to contradict the assertion at the 
beginning about not liking Harry 
with anyone.

Kathryn Wolber:
> You can say it annoys you that we
> don't know her well enough to make
> a judgement, But you don't know
> enough about her to like her or not. 
> She hasn't shown poor character
> thus far, so I don't see why anyone
> has a reason to not like her.  

<snip>

Let's look closely at Maria's reply:
> Cho didn't make any choices. That's
> part of why I don't like her. She's
> just this neutral character in the
> background that for some reason
> occupies Harry's thoughts and *this
> annoys me*.

Not knowing Cho well enough to justify
Harry's attraction (which itself 
is likely not wholly based on anything 
that can be typeset in words) seems to 
be at the root of Maria's disquiet.

Maria WAS not clear...but she IS much 
more so now.  Kathryn, this is a 
good thing, don't you think?  

<nudge nudge prod prod>

Snuffles in reference to the scene 
where Cho turns Harry down:
> I always thought there was a lot to
> see in Cho during this particular
> scene in the book. I felt as though
> she would have accepted Harry's
> offer were it  not that she was
> promised to Cedric for the Yule Ball.
> I got the sense that she knew and
> had some sense of empathy for the
> position Harry was in, and she 
> dealt with it in a kind and gentle
> way. Teenage girls aren't always as
> sweet  as she was, and there was a
> certain level of discomfort that I
> chalked up to not wanting to hurt
> Harry's feelings as she was aware
> of how hard it must be to ask a girl
> out, much less an older girl.

This scene is an interesting contrast 
to the later one in Gryffindor Tower 
where emotions were running high as 
back-up dates refused to have that 
role thrust upon them.  In trying to 
make the girls bring into reality his 
OWN unwarranted expectations, Ron 
ended up in a mess of his own making.

We've all been there, no?

Oh alright. <droops> Just me then.

Maria replied to Kathryn with this 
restatement of what Maria has said 
in verbiage that was snipped:
> First off, I dont dislike Cho
> because of what she is like  I
> dont know what she is like. I dont
> like her as Harrys romantic
> interest.
> 
> You see, I hated to see Harry melt
> like ice cream in the sun as soon as
> he laid eyes on her. For two and a
> half years of his life we watched
> Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and many
> other people grow and develop, weve
> grown to love some of them and
> dislike others *for a reason*, and
> here comes Cho Chang of whom we *and
> Harry* know *positively nothing*
> (at the moment) except that she is
> extremely pretty  and Harry falls
> for her like Romeo for Juliet.
 
Maria adds:
> First of all, I never wrote that I
> don't like Cho because she doesn't
> return Harry's feelings, I never
> even implied it, and I am *never*
> going to do it. C'mon, even I know
> that's stupid <g>.
> 
> I wrote that I don't dislike Cho
> Chang as a person. If anywhere else
> in that post I wrote "I don't like
> Cho Chang," it was to save space.
> I can even say this: I don't like
> Cho Chang as a character.
> 
> I'm sorry for losing people on that
> particular point.

Which at this time, can only be the 
folks who come late to this thread.  
Their not reading the whole thread 
carefully is beyond of your control.

Maria:
> As for Cho being very decent in GoF
> (I am not arguing with that) - well,
> that was after Harry first got a
> crush on her. I was already very
> annoyed at it. I can't help myself
> - sorry.

Petra, at another point in thread:
> Do you still hold Cho responsible 
> for Harry falling for her at first
> sight?

Maria:
> No. Moreover, I never did.

I believe you.  It's just that it 
sounded to me like you did and I was 
confused by that.

Petra:
> So, do you dislike Harry for his
> 'love at first sight,'a physical
> reaction that he has no control
> over?

Maria:
> No. But the fact annoys me.

<HA!>  Me too.

Petra:
> do you dislike JKR for writing that
> scene the way she did?

Maria:
> No. I love JKR, but that scene
> irritates me.

<hand a-raised in concurrence>

Maria:
> And I don't think I have anything
> else to say on the subject at this
> point.

I'll stop poking you now...now that I 
understand you sooo much more clearly.

<horns a-sprouting>

> Maria,
> 
> who thanks Petra Pan for helping her
> to sort out her thoughts. :)

Pensieve Petra, at your service.

<hand a-flourishing>

Always an eager audience for 
outstanding achievements of grace 
under pressure.  Brava!

Particularly apropos for Monday, the 
day I had off in honor of Martin 
Luther King, Jr.

:)

Having had her theory referenced, 
Lilac weighed-in.  In part:
> Just for the record, it was my
> first attempt at a "bangy" theory,
> without realizing what "banging"
> really is (I still don't understand
> it...oh well).  I just thought it
> would really be tricky of JKR to
> have Cho turn evil...she is one you
> would never guess in a million years
> to turn to the dark side.  I'll
> admit, it's not a very good theory,
> with absolutely _no_ canon support 

<snip>

Your theory is no LESS plausible than 
every other theory floating around 
about just what is simmering in JKR's 
cauldron of inventions.  To elevate 
it to being MORE plausible by citing 
your dislike of Barbie dolls who are 
ugly on the inside is what landed you 
in Priori Postis #50232.

This and the fact that you displayed 
all the key indicators for holding 
a shipping bias in those old posts.

Lilac:
> AND I'll admit it...I didn't like
> Cho *the character* too much when
> I first read the books, and I
> couldn't figure out why.  In fact,
> I didn't *want* to figure out why
> for the longest time.  I saw her
> as a monkey wrench for the SHIP
> subplots *I* thought JKR was going
> to write, so she was not "wanted"
> ...by me anyway.  I didn't hate
> her, just not a fan of hers.  But
> she is so likable in every way that
> the wonderful Cho fans have
> mentioned in previous posts. 
> Doesn't make any sense, does it?

It doesn't, does it?

<snip>

Lilac:
> I learned some very important
> things from my discussion with
> Jessica.  First off, other people
> had very different interpretations
> of these characters, and that was
> *okay*.  We could agree to disagree. 
> Second, our personal experiences
> flavored our interpretations
> greatly.  For Jessica, she
> mentioned that Ginny's embarrasing
> behavior reminded her of herself at
> that age.  She feels she's more
> like Hermione now, but it felt like
> going through hell to get to where
> she is now.  I can understand and
> respect that.

:)

Lilac:
> Thirdly, I was making the same
> *judgements* about Cho that I
> imagined others were making about
> Ginny...what a hypocrite, huh? 
> Especially since I started the whole
> "Cho is Evil" thread (a very
> short-lived thread back then).  My
> only consolation is that I didn't
> go and start up a "Cho is Evil"
> Yahoo-group, because then I would
> be the world's biggest hypocrite. 
> [No offense intended for members of
> the evil Ginny or (if there is one)
> evil Cho yahoo groups!] 

One point of interest: "Cho is Evil" 
is not actually new in this fandom 
by any stretch of the imagination.  
There is (was?) an "Evil!Cho" group 
on Yahoo, isn't there?

You were not alone.  But then, it 
would seem, you are not there 
anymore either.

Lilac:
> I think the real reason I didn't
> like Cho is that I was *jealous* of
> her.  I mean, think about it...she
> has it *all*...she's beautiful,
> smart, talented Quidditch-wise,
> dated a school Champion, AND to top
> it all off, she's nice.  I was
> reminded of those girls in high
> school just like her, who you hated
> for no good reason (aka jealousy),
> so I disliked Cho for the same
> no-good reason.  I know...how
> utterly shallow of me.  However,
> this book does bring out the "teen"
> in you, and when reliving those teen
> experiences with our beloved Trio,
> feelings just kind of "spring-up"
> seemingly out of nowhere.  At least
> it happened that way with me.  
> 
> It's a good thing to analyze why we
> feel certain ways about these
> characters, because we learn
> something about ourselves in the
> process.  For example, I learned
> how not to assume that everyone
> feels the same way I do about
> certain characters AND how to not
> ignore the "beam" in my own eye
> while pointing out the "motes" in
> others' eyes. <very sheepish grin>

Good to see a loose thread tied up.

:)

You'd have gotten almost the 
exact same response from me back 
when you first posted your theory 
if not for the fact that I was 
(as usual) incredibly behind.  Glad 
Jessica and you had explored your 
reactions so thoroughly.

Now, O Teaching One on Mommy Leave, 
you get to pass this on.

Petra, much to read before she sleeps
a
n  :)

[NOTE - if you don't own either the 
US hardback or the UK paperback, you 
now have the mathematical means to 
get pretty close to the right page 
in your edition.  You just need to 
look up the last page number for 
your ed...and get a calculator.]

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