OOP: Sirius thoughts ...

[Indigo]

No: HPFGUIDX 67648

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "minetourjunkie" 
> <sarah_wendling at h...> wrote:
> > The space for the spoilers ...
> > 
> > 
> > Pippin said (with some snipping):
> > > > Sirius never had a sense of purpose beyond catching up 
> with Peter 
> > > > and fighting Voldemort. 
> > 
> > Marianne replied: 
> > > That may very well be true, but I think you could cut the man 
> maybe 
> > > an inch of slack in that he's spent most of the past 14 years 
> in 
> > > isolation from other humans. He hasn't had much of a 
> chance to reconnect to wizard life outside of the narrow focus of 
> concentrating on Voldemort and Peter.  But, we'll never know as  
> that story arc has been cut.<<
> 
> I'm not saying Sirius deserved to die because of his flaws, 
> anymore than I would say that  drunk drivers deserve to cause 
> accidents. Saying that Sirius's flaws led to his death is not 
> saying that he deserved to die on  account of them.
> 
> >Sarah said:
> > First off, I think Sirius did have other senses of purpose (can 
> you pluralize that?): protecting Harry for starters.  
> <snip>
> 
> > Again, I'm not sure his life was organized around the fight 
> against  evil.  A good deal of his motivation seems to come from 
> guilt over  James' death and a need to protect Harry at all costs 
> to make up for his earlier mistakes.  And he seems to genuinely 
> like the boy.  I  wouldn't blame Sirius for his death either - I
> mean, 
> if your  kid/surrogate kid was in mortal peril, are you gonna sit 
> around and  hope for the best?  Especially if you were a good 
> fighter?  I don't  think wanting to protect Harry is a flaw. <
> 
> That is where we disagree, I think. Harry, though still legally a 
> child, does not need protection any more.  Sirius spends most of 
> OOP feeling sorry for himself because he can't take care of 
> Harry, even though he knows in his heart Harry doesn't need to 
> be looked after or protected any more. That's what I mean about 
> losing his sense of purpose. There was work for Sirius to do in 
> the house--making it fit to live in and taking care of Kreacher--
but 
> he refused to do it.

I think it wasn't so much that he refused to do it -- he did help out 
in the Parlor scene where he got bitten by the snuffbox, and stayed 
for that entire scene.

Also it should be taken into account that Kreacher /hates/ Sirius and 
is loyal to the painting of Sirius' mother, who /hates and despises/ 
Sirius.  Neither of these are conducive to Sirius feeling much warmth 
or affection toward either of them.  Sirius was trying to clean some 
of the things out of the house, but Kreacher kept sneaking them away 
to his living quarters. Kreacher also spent most of the book skulking 
around muttering similar insults toward everyone Sirius had invited 
into the house.  Sirius was also of the opinion Kreacher knew exactly 
what he was saying, despite not being all right in the head.  I am 
inclined to agree with Sirius, given what Kreacher ended up doing 
later.

And I think it was compassionate of Sirius, considering his deep 
enmity, when he told Hermione "the shock would kill him"  to set 
Kreacher free -- not just him being annoyed with a teenage girl's 
intent to have freedom for House Elves at any cost.   Kreacher was 
very old and clearly unhinged. He would have not lasted very long on 
the outside world.  You can bet that as unpleasant to him as Sirius 
was, other Elf-Owning families would be no better, and more likely be 
worse.

 
> The original poster said that Sirius needed to die because Harry 
> needed an additional reason to hate Voldemort. I think it would 
> be closer to say Harry needed an additional reason to hate 
> Snape, but that's not the only reason Sirius had to go.
> 
> At the beginning of the story Harry thinks his godfather's attitude 
> is kinda cool.  IMO, JKR wants us to realize that's a problem for 
> Harry.   Having the attitude lead to the godfather's death is a lot 
> more effective and dramatic than having the godfather say, "Gee, 
> I've been making everybody around me miserable. I guess 
> acting arrogant and superior, holding a lifelong grudge, and 
> refusing to obey orders even when I know they're for my own 
> good and other peoples' isn't the way to go." 

I'm not sure Harry's going to pick up that message right away, 
though.  He's probably thinking how awful it is that his last 
living "family" member is gone and that he's stuck with the Dursleys 
[who hate him and the feeling is mutual, thanks] until he reaches age 
of majority.

As for Sirius having no purpose? He had purpose before Wormtail 
framed him.  He was a happy successful wizard despite his family's 
mistreatment of him and affection for Dark Wizardry until Azkaban.  

And then his only purpose was "survive" until he could escape.  

He learned to make his purposes goal-oriented and one at a time 
because his life had been effectively ruined.

I don't think he knew in his heart Harry didn't need protection 
anymore.  No parent ever believes their child completely grown up 
enough to survive without their guidance/protection -- and Sirius is 
driven this way not only as a manner of giving himself something to 
live for after having lost his looks, his prosperity and his life -- 
but probably he considers it the only rightful thing to do after his 
giving the Secret Keeper to Wormtail to fool Voldemort; that he owes 
it to Lily and to James to look after their child as he tries to 
withstand the rise of the one who murdered them.

Not to mention the fact that Mad Eye and the rest of the Order also 
thought Harry still needed protection or there wouldn't have been the 
equivalent of a high-level police escort around the trip to Number 
Twelve Grimaud Place.  

> Sirius didn't get a chance to solve his attitude problems because 
> the reader has to realize that Harry's life is at stake if he 
doesn't 
> solve his--or develops new ones. Harry hasn't only got to defeat 
> Voldemort, he has to do it while remaining humble, letting go of 
> grudges and considering other peoples' welfare. If he doesn't do 
> that, he may well  become an agent of evil even if Voldemort 
> himself is defeated.
> 
> Pippin

I think Harry had a lot of things to be rightfully angry about.

I also think that, being 15, Harry blew them out of all rational 
proportion because that's what kids do at that age.  Everything they 
don't like, don't understand, or wish was different and complain is 
not their way is horrible, terrible, and the end of the world. 

He's being forced to grow up fast, but he /is/ still a kid with a 
kid's way of looking at the world when he doesn't understand the way 
things go.

Indigo
Unrepentant Sirius Apologist  [USA! USA! *ahem* Ahahaha. Hahaha. ha. 
Yeah.]