[HPforGrownups] A far-fetched analysis of the Prophecy

[lissbell at colfax.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 69588

Hi Random

Lissa wrote:
>>I said it before and I say it again now:  I believe Harry Potter and
>>Ginny Weasley are Tom Marvolo Riddle's parents.


Random replied:
> But, if that's the case, Voldemort wouldn't be Salazar Slytherin's only 
> living ancestor (if you think this is an error, why was it corrected 
> back in later editions - _and_, if you think this "must" be an error 
> you can't possibly believe the theory you stated) as Harry and Ginny 
> would be also


Hmm. I answered this point back when I first posted my theory, but I 
don't think my response satisfied the poster who critiqued it most 
relentlessly, so I'm glad to answer it again.  (She stated her case 
beautifully, by the way.)

Your wording, Random, is actually key here.  Dumbledore does not in fact 
tell Harry that Tom Riddle is Slytherin's *only* living descendant 
(which Rowling claimed she erred and called "ancestor").  What 
Dumbledore says is that Voldemort is "the last remaining descendant" 
(CoS p 332 US paperback--and, again, there is the ancestor/descendant 
discrepancy.)  To answer your first question, Random, I suspect Rowling 
made that little slip because she was taxing herself to the point of 
frustration in trying to find a way to phrase Dumbledore's response to 
Harry truthfully without actually revealing the truth.  Her mind was 
probably terribly caught up in the whole 
father/son/ancestor/descendant/bloodline notion.  I could be wrong about 
that, though.  In any case, I don't believe Dumbledore is lying.  I 
don't believe he's mistaken.  He's telling Harry the literal truth, but 
relying on the fact that "last remaining" is used commonly to mean "only 
remaining".  It does not grammatically or logically, however, mean this. 
  What it *does* logically mean is that, of the set of one or more 
remaining descendants of Salazar Slytherin, Voldemort is the last. 
"Last", in English, can mean "most recent", "leftmost", "only", 
"rightmost", etc.  In my theory Tom Riddle is, in fact, the most recent 
entry on the Slytherin family tree.  (I believe Harry is a Slytherin 
descendant.)

No, I'm really not speaking gibberish in a vain attempt to deny 
Rowling's words. (hopeful smile)  Because I was questioned so rigorously 
on this point, I actually made a trip to the local university and 
visited my Philosophy of Logic professor.  I asked him if my 
interpretation of Dumbledore's sentence is valid.  He confirmed that it 
is, gave me some insightful articles on logic and language and even 
referred me to a book that covered the topic at hand--conversational 
implicature.  (If you're interested, I'll send you author names and 
article titles.)

I grant that Dumbledore is being deceitful in this passage, but he's 
engaging in linguistic gymnastics to spare Harry's feelings.  I can't 
fault him.  If you think about it, really, CoS exists to explore two 
questions: does Harry have any relation to Slytherin and does Harry have 
any relation to Tom Riddle?  It seems unlikely that, after an entire 
book's worth of suggestions that there *were* connections, the answer to 
both questions is just no.


Now I have a question for anyone reading who happens to know the answer. 
  Both my hardback and paperback copies have "ancestor" in this passage 
despite Rowling's statement that "ancestor" was an error and should have 
read "descendant".  This kind of mistake really should have been 
corrected before the paperback release, so why *is* it still printed 
this way?  It doesn't really support or contradict my theory one way or 
the other, but I'm curious.


Random wrote (about Dumbledore's deceit regarding thrice-defying

parents of the Dark Lord versus thrice-defying parents of HP):

> Or AD himself doesn't know... prophecies can be tricky things.


Lissa replied:
That is, of course, a possibility, but Dumbledore so carefully crafted 
his comments that it makes me believe he does know.  (It took me several 
read-throughs before I realized that he wasn't saying what I *believed* 
he was.  Dumbledore is a manipulative genius.)

 
Random wrote about the Harry & Ginny as Tom Jr's parents idea:
> if they _are_ his 
> parents, what if they had six before him? is there anything significant 
> about the seventh child of a seventh child of a seventh child (if we 
> assume either Arthur or Molly is indeed a seventh child)


Lissa replied:
Intriguing thought.  I've always assumed the events of the whole series 
would be contained in the seven books, so Ginny would realistically only 
have time to become pregnant once, get lost in the past, then die giving 
birth to baby Riddle.   My assumptions, however, could be dead wrong. 
This would be interesting and might explain why Tom Marvolo is such a 
magical wunderkind.

Fandom wrote (about the fact that implication that the prophecy could

apply to *many* boys born in July 1980)

> This is worth examining on its own... do we know any other characters 
> in the books that are or might have been born at the end of July in 
> 1980?


Lissa replied:
It is, I think, really intriguing from that Voldemort chose Harry for 
his enemy when it could have been so many different boys.  (Of course 
Voldemort was operating under the mistaken assumption, most likely, that 
the boy would be born to parents who'd defied him three times.) 
Dumbledore confirms, though, that the prophecy does in fact apply to 
Harry because Voldemort marked him as his equal.  (You could argue, I 
guess, that Dumbledore is wrong here.  He just tends not to be wrong 
about these things...)


Random wrote (about the parents who defied LV 3 times): 
> but it certainly 
> doesn't HAVE TO be harry. who else could it be? and who else could the 
> end-of-july kid be?


Lissa replied:
Hmmm, wild speculation... why not??  I'm sure many members of the Order 
of the Phoenix have defied Voldemort multiple times.  Sirius, Remus, 
Mad-Eye, Lily, James and the rest would be candidates, I'd suupose.  I 
don't, however, base my idea that Harry is Voldemort's father on the 
Prophecy.  I've had this theory since last summer based on evidence from 
the first four books.  The Prophecy just happens to be an especially 
nice bit of suggestive evidence, but you're absolutely right that the 
Prophecy alone doesn't guarantee the Dark Lord's father is Harry.

As far as who else the end-of-July boy could have been... it really is 
moot since Voldemort chose Harry, but it's oh so very interesting!  It 
would make me laugh endlessly if it *could* have been Gregory Goyle or 
Vincent Crabbe.  Poor Tom really didn't choose his mortal enemy wisely.

 
Random wrote (about the # of times HP has defied LV):
> the number of defiance can range from zero to six depending on

> how you interpret things.


Lissa replied:
You're right, of course, that there's room for interpretation here. 
It's mostly just my personal, reasoned opinion that HP has defied LV 
twice to date.

Random wrote (about Lissa's Harry-Ginny as Tom's parents theory):
> I got the impression this was a completely new theory, and anyway i 
> wouldn't have the first clue what to search for? would you mind 
> emailing to random832 at rcbooks dot org if you're completely unwilling 
> to tell the list?


Lissa replied:
I should have just included a link in the original post, but I was 
kinda, sorta thinking everyone would blink at my silly Prophecy thoughts 
and dismiss them.  I *really* don't want to annoy Rowling...

Anyway, the post (my first at HP4G, so it's clumsy) is here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/57319

I tried to keep that first post short, so I left some important things 
out.  First of all, I should have mentioned that I believe the gleam in 
Dumbledore's eye in GoF is a result of DD's realization that Tom Riddle 
has slightly botched his resurrection spell (in using the bone of an 
enemy and the blood of his father rather than vice versa) and created 
unexpected side effects he has yet to discover.  Also, I should have 
noted that I think it's rather suspicious we don't know Tom Jr's 
mother's name.


And since I've already opened this can of squirming and unsavory things 
and risked inciting JKR's annoyance, I should add this:

A *brilliant* woman named Bonnie wrote me before OOP arrived and gave me 
another piece of evidence for my theory.  The first significant thing we 
read about in Chapter One of PS is Voldemort's murder of Lily and James 
and his attempt to murder Harry.  If my theory is true, Tom has just 
killed his grandparents and tried to kill his father as the last act of 
his pre-limbo life.  This neatly parallels the revelation in Chapter One 
of GoF in which we learn (confirmed at the end of that book) that Tom Jr 
murdered Tom Riddle Sr and his parents--the people Tom Jr *believes* to 
be his grandparents and father. (This is probably the *first* murder in 
his pre-limbo life.  The Potters were certainly his last.) This parallel 
is too profound, in my opinion, to be mere coincidence. I give Bonnie a 
thousand sincere and humble thanks for pointing it out.


Random wrote (about the number of times HP defied LV):
> A parting thought, for those who think four and those (including 
> myself) who think it will almost certainly be four before the series is 
> out - "thrice defied" does not imply "no more than thrice defied".


Lissa replied:
You're absolutely correct.  I almost argued this in my post this 
morning, but I was too tired to do it.  Also, I tend to believe that 
Rowling will make it exactly three (and make it quite apparent) by the 
series' close just because it would fit so neatly with the prophecy 
then--but she certainly wouldn't have to.

Another random thought related to the Prophecy--and my apologies if 
someone else has brought it up and I missed it--did anyone find the fact 
that Harry's Prophecy was in row 97 significant?  It could be complete 
coincidence, of course, but perhaps the Prophecies are filed by the year 
in which they're expected to be fulfilled.  (In this case, the 
fulfillment would refer to the vanquishing of the Dark Lord, not the 
birth of the boy.)  Oh, this is probably complete silliness.  Ignore my 
goofy ramblings.

Thanks so *very* much for your comments, Random. (If you prefer to be 
called Random832, let me know.)

Cheers,
Lissa B