[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from PS/SS)

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 69797

On 13 Jul 2003 at 2:00, Sydney wrote:

> Well, maybe he's a good teacher, who shouldn't be allowed to be in
> charge of children.  He'd clearly be put to much better use snarking
> around at grad students.  In any event, surely there's some grey area
> between being a "bad teacher, period", and a "good teacher"?  They're
> not eggs, you know...

Yes, I agree, there's a large grey area. And Snape spends a lot of time 
in that grey area. But on this occasion, I think he moved out of the 
grey.
 
> > But there is a line at which such a teacher becomes sadistic and
> > abusive 
> > to their students. I probably put that line way closer to the point of 
> > total evil than most people - but the line is still there.
> > 
> > And I think Snape crossed it.
> 
> Total evil?!  

No, sorry - that's not what I meant, but I can see how you've got that 
impression. I'll address that in a second.
 
> Okay, I'll bite.  I'm sorry, I personally used to be quite a delicate
> flower in school and would certainly have burst into tears in
> Hermionie's situation.  But TOTAL EVIL?!  I just can't go there with
> you.  Snape was a total jackass, certainly, but I'm mystified as to
> why this scene hits people so hard.  I mean, if I wanted to go on
> about how cruel Snape was, I'd go through ten things he's done to
> Neville before the teeth incident even crossed my mind.  

Right - no, I don't think Snape is totally evil.

What I was referring to is I think there's a continuum operating here. 
Let's put it on a scale from 0-10 between 'Sweetness and Light' at 0, 
and 'Total Evil' at 10.

All teachers could be placed on that line. In fact, they'd fall into a 
range on that line.

Just to be arbitrary, Dumbledore might be at 1-3, McGonnagall at 2-4. 
I'm not using exact ranges, just illustrating my basic point.

Most people would set a point on that continuum where they don't think 
teachers should go. Personally, I'd be pretty far to the right on it. If 
the average person doesn't think a teacher should go over 6, I'd 
probably think it was OK to go as far as 8.

But the line will be set somewhere. And Snape, on that occasion, crossed 
the line, IMHO. I don't think he got all the way up to 10 - total evil. 
But he definitely got closer to it than I can countenance.

With regards to Neville... I'm not sure at the moment. Prior to Order of 
the Phoenix, I would say that Snape's treatment of Neville was much 
worse than his treatment of Hermione. But the difference is, his 
mistreatment of Neville does generally take place in a classroom 
environment which means I can accept the possibility it's a teaching 
strategy rather that egregious cruelty. And the 'new improved' Neville 
of Order of the Phoenix, means I can see a *possibility* that Neville 
may have benefitted from Snape's teaching. That doesn't necessarily make 
his treatment of Neville justified - but it does open the possibility 
that he did have Neville's 'best interests' at heart.

> Regarding whether Snape had specifically calculated Hermionie's
> ability to "take it"-- I certainly don't think he did, but then, he'd
> have to think a kid was a real timebomb to reckon four words could
> scar them for life. I don't see how the teeth remark can count as
> evidence of serious malice unless Snape could anticipate it causing
> serious, lasting harm.

The point is, IMHO, that he should anticipate that possibility. Any 
teacher should.

And his comment was not spur of the moment either, which I could 
understand a bit more easily. It came after a deliberate pause. It seems 
to have been considered and then said.
 
> It would suck to be Hermionie, or anybody, in that scene, but do you
> honestly think we're talking about cataclysmic personality collapse
> for the recepient here?  It would sting for a couple of days, they'd
> complain to their friends, plot revenge, flash back to it once in blue
> moon and seethe... but life-long damage?  Spiritually mutilated little
> tykes barely able to drag themselves through life because of
> Squeers-type mental torture? The sort of life-long damage that is
> lusted after by TOTAL EVIL?!?  

No, I don't.

But I also don't think that's the point.

You don't assess the wrongness of an action, based on the targets 
ability to resist it.

The fact is, though, I deal with kids who have suffered long term harm 
as a result of this type of treatment. It does happen sometimes. 
 
> Snape didn't exactly leap into action over Goyle either, all he did
> was state the obvious, "Hospital wing, Goyle".  Okay, so he neglected
> saying "Hospital wing, Granger" but I don't consider that to be a
> really collosal ommision, comparatively. Someone genuinely good with
> children should probably have walked them both up.  Undoubtedly he had
> some equally cruel remark about Goyle on the tip of his tongue;  he
> just didn't say it, on account of the "must be nice to Death Eater
> kids" thing.  That's as far as I'll go one the "spy cover story"
> theory.  I don't think Snape needs an excuse to bark at people, he's a
> junkyard dog.  Again, just par-for-the-Snape.

OK - that *could* mitigate, IMHO. If he would have been that mean to 
Goyle, given the chance, it might change things. And that would be 
possible - just no evidence for it.

But there is a big difference, IMHO, between acknowledging a students 
problem, and publically denying it. I think his treatment of Goyle and 
Hermione are world's apart.

> And Hermionie, who's a far better judge of character, quite rightly
> tries to hide her face. She knows enough of his *manner* to expect
> what's coming as his normal response.  A crap response obviously, but
> I still think it's normal for Snape. I don't really see this as an
> argument for this incident being extraordinarily cruel.

I don't think that's why Hermione is hiding her face at all. It could 
be, but I think it's far more likely that she doesn't want anyone to see 
it - not that she knows Snape well enough to know how he will react. In 
fact, I believe she'd be more likely to expect Snape to be fair than Ron 
would - especially if this is the girl some people are claiming has the 
insight needed to more readily trust Snape in OotP.
 
> I'm not really defending Snape here, that line was indefensible.  But
> indefensible like an indefensible speeding ticket, not indefensible
> like murder.  I wish he could get a job away from children, both for
> his sake, and the students.  But I'm still not getting my head around
> why people get so freaked out about the teeth thing.

Because there was no educative purpose to it. Virtually everything else 
Snape does, IMHO, could be viewed as simply indicative of him having an 
unusual view of education. This can't be.

Some of his treatment of Harry crosses a line as well, IMHO - but the 
difference in that case is, we *KNOW* Snape has a very particular 
dislike for Harry, a very clear and real hatred. That's a clear part of 
who he is, and we know some of the reasons behind it.

Do I think what he did was as bad as murder? No. But I do consider it to 
be equivalent to an assault.

> To be honest, I can just imagine myself saying something like that, on
> the worst day of my life maybe-- but I've certainly snapped at people
> before, and hurt them as well.  I'm worried that this keeps getting
> brought up as evidence of total moral bankrupcy!   Could someone
> explain this to me?

The point is, I can accept the possibility that this was an aberration 
even for Snape. I've said so in a previous post ("I can fully accept by 
the way, that people make mistakes. Even a good teacher can make the 
occasional monumental blunder - and maybe that's what this was.")

Anyone can make a mistake - but mistake or not, I think this incident is 
different from Snape's general nastiness - and that's why I view it 
differently.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia