[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from PS/SS) also broom-bucking

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 69980

On 13 Jul 2003 at 20:51, Sydney wrote:

> And Shaun replied:
> > 
> > The point is, IMHO, that he should anticipate that possibility. Any 
> > teacher should.
> 
> We're clearly never going to agree on this.  I don't think any
> reasonable person, would anticipate the possibility of causing
> serious, lasting harm to a thirteen-year-old from one nasty comment. 
> I just don't.

I didn't refer to 'any reasonable person'. I referred to 'any teacher'.

Teachers are a specific group with a specific duty of care. And that 
duty should include a reasonable understanding of child and adolescent 
psychology. I'll come back to that in a second.

We're also not talking about 'one nasty comment' IMHO. If my primary 
objection was to Snape making nasty comments, there'd be plenty of other 
incidents which would annoy me just as much, but as I've made clear they 
don't. It's this one incident that crosses the line.

And to classify this one incident as being simply 'one nasty comment' 
is, IMHO, misleading and incorrect. Because it's a lot more than that. 
The comment in isolation isn't a major issue.

But what we have is a situation where a teacher is confronted by two 
injured students - both injured through no fault of their own - and he 
sends one to the hospital wing, and verbally attacks the other, by 
making a comment that dismisses their concerns and injuries.

This is not just a matter of a biting comment - it's the context that 
makes it so unacceptable.

Now, you may still disagree with me, and that's fine - but my point is 
that it's not the comment itself that is the problem, IMHO. It's the 
whole situation and Snape's reaction to it.

Now - to the idea that teachers should have a reasonable understanding 
of child and adolescent psychology - that's an ideal, and I am well 
aware that there are a lot of schools where it is not the case. And I 
also believe there are other more serious deficiencies in teacher 
training that should be addressed before this becomes a priority. I'm 
also aware that Hogwarts is not a normal school, and that attitudes in 
the Wizarding World are quite different on some issues. This could 
indicate that it's not reasonable to expect Snape to have these skills - 
because the Wizarding World doesn't regard them as important etc.

Except for one thing, IMHO. The other teachers seem to have them. We 
don't see any evidence of other teachers abusing their students in the 
same way Snape does - and I think by now, we would have seen some of 
that. We've seen the flaws in Binn's classes (dull, dull, dull) and in 
Lockharts, and in Trelawney's. We do a little bit about how the others 
teach - and it doesn't seem to be the way Snape does. I doubt any of 
them obsess about their students psychological wellbeing - but none of 
the others seem to be as bad as Snape. His attitudes cannot simply be 
explained away because of differences in culture.

I may go into this in more detail in another post later today - but I'm 
running out of time for the moment. I want to say that for the most 
part, I'm greatly enjoying this discussion, including the amount of 
people who disagree with me. I like being told I'm wrong, especially by 
people who seem to have put a reasonable level of thought into their 
responses (-8.

> Well, the wrongness of an action, should be based on what a reasonable
> person would anticipate normally being significantly harmful. 
> Pinching someone is just not the same as stabbing them, despite the
> rare instances of haemophiliacs who WOULD suffer long-term damage from
> being pinched.  Snape would have assumed Hermionie was a normal girl,
> not a fragile neurotic on the verge of a nervous breakdown, which, as
> I said before, is the only sort of person for whom this would be a
> cataclysmic event as opposed to a lousy day. 

I disagree. Most of the students I know who have suffered significant 
long term damage as a result of such treatment were not neurotics - at 
least not up until the point they suffered harm. This is mostly because 
if a person is a neurotic, most people can detect that and most people 
back off and make allowances for it (unfortunately, not all, there's a 
subset of the population who view such people as a better target).

It's the fact that people who don't seem to have problems, can collapse 
under these stresses that makes it so important for teachers to avoid 
them.

I fully admit that there's a personal aspect here. One incident - one 
incident alone - when I was 13 years old almost sent me over the edge. 
To most people, while they'd probably agree that it was distasteful 
would probably find the idea that it could cause long term damage 
surprising. But that's the reality, and it's no uncommon. I was lucky - 
there was a teacher around who dealt with what happened. And he wasn't a 
nice man. He wasn't a nice teacher. In fact, he was a complete and total 
excretory aperture most of the time. But that didn't stop him doing his 
job, when dealing with a child in distress.
 
> I just think Herimonie is the kind of person who is aware that someone
> can be a git in some situations and a hero in others.  I realize I'm
> in a different position from Hermionie here, not being a fictional
> character and all, but I don't have a problem thinking of Snape as
> being both a git and a hero.  And I don't know the Thing that makes
> Dumbledore trust him either.  I'm not saying I'm a picture of
> reasonable sanity, but I'm just saying someone can, merely from the
> information we have so far, make a positive judgement call on Snape's
> character.

Sure, I agree with that. For me, it's only this particular incident that 
makes me feel seriously antagonistic towards Snape. If it wasn't for 
this, I'd probably have a very different opinion of him, and it would be 
a potentially positive one (I'd want to know more about his inner 
thoughts before I could say it would be positive).
 
> > Do I think what he did was as bad as murder? No. But I do consider
> it to 
> > be equivalent to an assault.
> 
> I doubt a court of law would agree with you.  If the police started
> going around arresting people for saying mean things, particularily in
> a British public school, there'd be more people in jail than out of
> it.  What Moody/Crouch did in the ferret incident, that WAS assult,
> which is why, Darrin, *she says pointedly* I DON'T think the incidents
> are remotely comparable.

Actually, courts of law would agree with me. And have. Generally not in 
criminal cases, but in civil cases, it's becoming accepted more and more 
that teachers do have a specific and particular duty of care in such 
cases, and Snape could be well and truly screwed if he came up in such a 
case over this incident. Most cases, by the way, don't reach court - but 
a few have in Australia, Canada, the US, and the UK.

Criminal law is a different matter - but that's fine with me, because I 
don't think in most cases, criminal law should be involved in such 
cases.

Moody's actions, OTOH, do verge on being a criminal assault. That's 
borderline under British Muggle law of the period though (where a 
teacher in a private school could make ready use of the reasonable 
chastisement defence), and I suspect under Wizarding law as well 
(evidenced by the fact that the Head(master/mistress) of Hogwarts can 
apparently order Horsewhipping quite legally).
 
> Geez, no wonder no one can make a move any more without getting sued.
>  Is this really what happens in American schools?  All he did was fail
> to say "Hospital wing, Granger".  If he'd made her sit through class
> with the huge teeth, then you'd start having a point.  Suggesting he
> "refused to get her medical attention" is warping what happened to a
> really extraordinary degree.  

It's what is happening in British schools as well (and Australian) and 
has been since the mid-1980s. If I was back at university, I could 
probably identify the specific cases.

There's plenty of teachers who get away with it as well - court cases 
are rare, but they do happen.  

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia