I Corinthians 13--random thoughts

[bluetad2001]

No: HPFGUIDX 70150

I'm in agreement with both points made here by Hans in reply to a 
very interesting post by Terry LJ.  It does deserve a considered 
response rather than a swift one.  I also have very limited time 
(this is my lunch hour!)  If it was possible to find another forum 
where these particular issues could be considered at a slower pace I 
would be interested.  Of course its possible to set up a new 
yahoogroups list - I'm a list owner of a poetry workshop group so 
have experience of this, but am not sure if there is a usual way that 
spin off groups work with HPFGU? 

Thanks both for posts worth pondering!

Alison  


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ivan Vablatsky 
<ibotsjfvxfst at y...> wrote:
> Wow, is this a winderful post! This is the kind of thing I joined 
HPFGU for.
>  
> I'm thrilled to see I'm not the only one to compare HP to the most 
intensely spiritual and sublime works of humanity (What a compliment 
for JK Rowling!).
>  
> I'm going to print this post and carry it with me to ponder upon 
for the coming weeks. This is not the sort of post one writes one's 
immediate reaction to. Knee jerk reactions do hot rhyme with this 
sort of thing.
>  
> Sometimes I wonder whether there should be a subgroup of people who 
wish to delve into the liberating aspects of HP. 
>  
> It's fine by me if people want to investigate the literal aspets of 
the story. It helps everyone to appreciate the books more and it 
highlights JK Rowling's genius, but I prefer to see and examine their 
supernal spiritual foundations.
>  
> What do you think?
>  
> Hans in Holland
> 
> terryljames76 <terryljames at h...> wrote:
> DISCLAIMER: I am not suggesting that JKR is drawing from the Bible 
> for any of her work.  These are just some thoughts that occurred to 
> me while I was reading this particular passage.  Neither am I 
> suggesting that everyone else should make the same connections.  
Any 
> parallels I might draw are mine alone.  Nor am I comparing any of 
> JKR's characters to any Biblical characters.  All that said,  for 
> those of you who like to wonder and ponder....
> 
> There seems to be a consensus among the posters here that the 
> mysterious power that Dumbledore referred to, that Harry has so 
much 
> of, is love.  (Am re-reading OOP for the second time, but haven't 
got 
> that far yet--apologies if I'm phrasing things incorrectly.)  I 
can't 
> remember if that's ever specified, but that seems to be the general 
> assumption.
> 
> With that in mind, here's a few thoughts about "The Love Chapter"--
I 
> Corinthians 13 (NIV).  This jumps all over the chapter.
> 
> The first thing that I noticed was verse 8.  "Love never fails.  
But 
> where there are prophecies, they  will cease ('fail', in some 
> versions); where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where 
there 
> is knowledge, it will pass away."
> 
> Prophecy: Ron.  Also I thought of _the_ prophecy.
> Tongues: Harry (Parseltongue)  Peeves even teases Harry by 
referring 
> to him as "speaking in tongues".
> Knowledge: Hermione
> 
> So all these gifts will prove to be of no effect in the end.  What 
> will save the day is love.  
> 
> Verse 1:
> "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, 
I 
> am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."  Making a lot of 
> noise, but not accomplishing much.  "Angels" is a bit off, but we 
get 
> the point.  Harry again.  
> 
> Verse 2:
> "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and 
all 
> knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have 
> not love, I am nothing."  Ron again.  Ron doesn't seem to know that 
> he has this gift, but I think by now we all see it.   My question: 
> why hasn't Hermione noticed this?
> 
> Verse 3:
> "If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the 
> flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."  Hermione again.  
> Interesting that the other "set of three" refers to knowledge,  but 
> this "set of three" refers to giving to the poor, which could 
include 
> knitting for the house-elves.  The only one in the "set" that 
> changes, still refers to Hermione.  
> 
> Verses 4-7:
> "Love is patient, love is kind.  It does not envy, it does not 
boast, 
> it is not proud.  It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not 
> easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.  Love does not 
delight 
> in evil but rejoices with the truth.  It always protects, always 
> trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
> 
> Oddly enough, the person who comes to mind here is Luna.  "Not 
easily 
> angered, keeps no record of wrongs": she doesn't get upset that her 
> belongings are "missing"; she doesn't plot revenge on the ones who 
> took them; she just waits and trusts that they will be returned.   
> She is not in any kind of angst over her mother; she trusts and 
hopes 
> that she will see her again.  Her name, Lovegood, also connects her 
> with this passage.
> 
> Verses 9-10:
> "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when perfection 
> comes, the imperfect disappears." The NIV is a bit unclear 
> here; "perfection" is better translated as "complete".  We know a 
> little, and the prophecy refers to the little we know, but when we 
> understand completely, we don't need the prophecy--the incomplete 
> knowledge--anymore.  The prophecy is based on incomplete knowledge 
> and could wind up meaning something completely different.  Which I 
> think we all knew anyway, and would be disappointed if JKR doesn't 
> have some kind of twist in mind.
> 
> Verse 11:
> "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, 
I 
> reasoned like a child.  When I became a man, I put childish ways 
> behind me."  I think we saw a bit of that in OOP--the DA was a step 
> in the right direction--but not nearly enough.  I do believe that 
> Harry will be totally different by the end of Book 7.  I don't know 
> if that's a good thing or not.  
> 
> Verse 12:
> "Now we see but a poor reflection, as in a mirror; then we shall 
see 
> face to face.  Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as 
I 
> am fully known."  The mirror of Erised; seeing people face to face 
in 
> the Deadland; I won't even go there.  Insert your own fantastic 
> speculation here.  I think by the end of the series, Harry will 
> understand several people, including his parents, Dumbledore, and 
> Snape, much more thoroughly, and they--Snape, in particular--will 
> understand him better.  We've seen the first steps with that in the 
> Occlumency lessons, with Snape going over Harry's memories.
> 
> Verse 13: 
> "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.  But the 
greatest 
> of these is love."  We learned in the very first book (wasn't it?) 
> that Lily's love had put a powerful protection on Harry.  Will love 
> prove to be the undoing of Voldemort?  How?  Is this going to be a 
> Terry Goodkind thing where Harry will have to love Voldemort in 
order 
> to defeat him, or a Madeleine L'Engle thing where V. will be 
defeated 
> by Harry's love for someone else? Is it going to be a Star Wars 
thing 
> where, through the power of love, Voldemort will turn back into Tom 
> Riddle before he dies?  (I still have that recurring 
nightmare: "You 
> killed my father!"  "No, Harry...I AM your father...")
> 
> And what role will Luna play in this?  And Neville, who obviously 
> loves his parents very much?  We see in OOP that Voldemort sees 
love 
> as a weakness of others, to be used against them.  How will it all 
> play out?
> 
> OK, Bible lesson over.  Feel free to pick it apart.
> 
>  Terry LJ
> 
> 
> 
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