[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from PS/SS) also broom-bucking

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 70319

On 14 Jul 2003 at 10:46, Sydney wrote:

> I just can't get worked up over the difference between "three seconds"
> and "immediately".  If he had said, "my goodness!  This is terrible! 
> What shall we do.... I know, let's go to the hospital wing!", that's
> already twice as long as it actually took Hermionie to get going.  I
> think he was going to resume his responsibility within another
> half-second, which is 'later' I suppose.

It's not the timing, it's his actions that are the issue here.
 
> Perhaps we may be going a bit off-track as well by analogizing too
> completely to a physical injury.  These sorts of curses seem to fly
> around Hogwarts an awful lot (leeks in ears, antlers, boils, giant
> tongues...) and when adults deal with them they seem more exasperated
> than alarmed.  The twins are turning people into canaries for heavens'
> sake, and everone just rolls their eyes.  I think that type of thing
> is considered more of an inconvenience than a physical danger. 

I agree, but in Hermione's case, she was in obvious distress. So there 
is an element of harm involved. It may not be a serious long term injury 
(but there don't seem to be many of those with Madame Pomfrey's skills), 
but it is real
 
> When Ron was hit with the slug-barfing backfire (I'd take the tooth
> thing over that any day of the week, but anyhow), the Slytherins
> laughed, the Gryffindors shouted, the gang wanders off idly to
> Hagrid's, where they sit and have tea.  Meetings were not held,
> counselors were not summoned, lawsuits were not filed, hysteria did
> not abound, and in general the kids take away the very healthy lesson
> that life will knock you around and you have to learn not to panic
> about it.

Yes. But the situation is different. The biggest difference is that was 
an altercation between students with no special responsibility to each 
other. 

Other differences - Ron's slug-attack was self inflicted. Yes, he was 
provoked, but he is fundamentally to blame for it. Fact is, if that had 
happened in Snape's presence, while I would certainly still expect him 
to help Ron if needed, I wouldn't have any problem with him saying 
whatever he liked about it. Because Ron had done something to deserve 
it.

And they did not 'wander off idly' to Hagrid. They went to Hagrid 
because he was the nearest adult/member of staff. And Hagrid helped Ron, 
as much as he was able. We don't really know how competent Hagrid is - 
whether somebody else could have done more than just give Ron a bucket. 
But it does seem he did his best. He did his duty.

> > I should clarify - it's unlikely (though not impossible) that this 
> > incident alone would cause harm. However it is perfectly possible that 
> > it could harm a student who appears normal and non-neurotic in every 
> > way, and even if tested by a psychologist would not appear to have 
> > problems at all. It's a 'straw that broke the camel's back' situation. 
> 
> Well, if it's unlikely this incident would cause harm, why are still
> here trying this case?  Must be the doughnuts...

Well, the thing is, I'm not intending to 'try the case'. I don't think 
what Snape did to Hermione is a capital offence, or anything close to 
it. The reason I got involved in this thread has little to do with how 
'evil' this particular action was.

But some people don't seem to understand why *this* incident is the one 
those who object to Snape's behaviour focus on more than any other 
incident of his nastiness. It seems to me that there are a lot of people 
who have the attitude "Snape is mean - so why does this particular 
incident upset people so much." I mean, it's in the fourth book - 
Snape's been mean since we first encountered him. I think there are 
people out there who wonder why this is the incident that gets focused 
on, because they see Snape's actions as part of a simple pattern, with 
this incident being nothing unusual. Fair enough - I can understand that 
perception.

But I thought I'd try and answer the question, and give my perspective 
that is different. I think this incident is qualitatively different from 
the others - mainly because in other cases, an argument can be made that 
Snape's nastiness serves an educative purpose, or is triggered by issues 
we already know about in detail. This is the only case where I think he 
categorically does the wrong thing as a teacher. It is different.

I *don't* think it's the worst thing he's ever done in terms of the 
potential for damage to other people. I think his actions in the 
Shrieking Shack were far more disastrous potentially, as was his part in 
the decision not to continue teaching Harry occlumency. But in the 
former case, I believe he felt he was acting appropriately - we had more 
knowledge of the situation than he did. And in the latter, Harry had 
provoked him by invading his privacy.

The tooth incident *is* different, IMHO. How bad it actually is is 
debatable.
  
> If Snape had said, "My god!  Hospital wing as fast as your legs can
> carry you!", that scenario would be equally likely.  It would be a
> tragic accident, not something for which Snape would be liable.

Actually, liability law being what it is, it wouldn't surprise me if he 
was (-8

But I'm pretty sure that if such a situation occurred, and a subsequent 
investigation discovered the child had died because they were running 
away from a teacher who had made fun of their injury, that would be 
viewed *very* differently from a case where a child was running to the 
hospital wing at that teachers instruction.
 
> Yay!  Can we close the case then?  Snape gets his one-hundred and
> thirty-sixth little chat over being nicer to the kids, Hermionie
> strides into a bright small-toothed future, and we all move one day
> closer the the time that V-mort is defeated and Snape can get another
> job, for the love of god.

I can't say I'll close the case, because it depends if someone says 
anything interesting to respond to. (-8 But I don't think what Snape did 
is a hanging offence. I just think this incident is different from 
others we have seen.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia