[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from PS/SS) also broom-bucking

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

No: HPFGUIDX 70493

At 01:59 +0000 on 07/14/2003, Sydney wrote about [HPforGrownups] Re: 
Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from PS/S:

>>  But what we have is a situation where a teacher is confronted by two
>>  injured students - both injured through no fault of their own - and he
>>  sends one to the hospital wing, and verbally attacks the other, by
>>  making a comment that dismisses their concerns and injuries.
>
>I'm still not quite understanding this "Snape failed to get medical
>care" angle.  He looks at Goyle.  Says, "hospital wing".  Off Goyle
>scampers.  Looks at Hermionie.  Says, "I see no difference".
>Instantaneously, Hermionie runs crying off to the hospital wing, and
>Harry and Ron start screaming at him.  Any way you slice it, the cheap
>shot cost, what, three seconds?  Perhaps you are suggesting that the
>next thing Snape would have done, was not say, "well, off you go to
>the hospital wing", but rather, kept her through class or stood in the
>hallway for an hour making fun of her. I don't think he would have,
>but we're not trying the man on possibilities here.
>
>>  Now, you may still disagree with me, and that's fine - but my point is
>>  that it's not the comment itself that is the problem, IMHO. It's the
>>  whole situation and Snape's reaction to it.
>
>So, what I'm saying is, that Snape had about five seconds during which
>he was actually reacting to that particular situation (from the point
>of seeing that Herminie had been hit, I mean).  There simply wasn't
>time to see what he would have done next, and I'm not ready to pay
>damages or whatever we're doing here, based on what remains:  one
>snarky comment.

In his defense, he made no effort to restrain or penalize her by 
taking away house points when she (without permission or 
instructions) headed to the Hospital Wing. You have to distinguish 
the remark ("I see not difference") from his refusal to acknowledge 
that he was attacked and needed medical attention. Only the former is 
he obviously guilty of - Saying that he is guilty of the latter is 
precluded by Herminie's preemptive action is heading to the Hospital 
Wing. As I noted, Snape's lack of response to her leaving the area 
can (but not must) be viewed as an indiction that he would have 
followed up the insensitive remake with an order to go to the 
Hospital Wing to be checked out and attended to.

At 14:31 +1000 07/14/2003, Shaun Hately wrote about Re: 
[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from :
>Personally I think there's every chance he would have sent her to the
>hospital wing if she'd remained there. But in the event, he didn't. His
>first response should have been to help her - not to score points off
>her.

As I said above, I see the lack of any reaction to her leaving as 
support for the view that his next action WOULD have been to order 
her to the Hospital Wing.

At 14:31 +1000 07/14/2003, Shaun Hately wrote about Re: 
[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from :
>So basically in law, it could be acknowledged as an assault - but it
>would still be legal provided it didn't reach the standard of GBH (which
>is pretty high).
>
>I'm not sure if bouncing Draco would meet it or not - I suspect not, but
>I'm not a lawyer.

Given the post injury medical care available in the Muggle vs. the 
Wizard World, the line between ABH and GBH since if you look only at 
the Physical as opposed to the Mental harm due to the assault, the 
lasting Physical damage in the Wizard case is minimal or none (most 
injuries just need the right spell or potion to 
reverse/fix/eliminate). Broken (Even Missing <g>) Bones, wounds, etc. 
have been shown to "no problem" if you get a Wizard Healer (like 
Poppie) to treat you. That would make a GBH assault something that 
can not readily be reversed and would classify must Muggle Grade GBH 
as (permissible?) ABH in the Wizard World.

At 17:10 +1000 07/14/2003, Shaun Hately wrote about Re: 
[HPforGrownups] Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from PS/S:
>On 13 Jul 2003 at 20:30, Robert A. Rosenberg wrote:
>
>>  At 09:45 +1000 on 07/13/2003, Shaun Hately wrote about Re:
>>  [HPforGrownups] Hermione/Snape (OoP and a bit from PS/S:
>  >
>>  I think someone can be both. There are two aspects of Teaching a
>>  Subject - Lecturing (the act of transferring knowledge to the
>>  students) and Instruction (The act of interacting with a student by
>>  answering their questions [to clarify their absorption/understanding
>>  of the subject matter] and asking them questions to test their
>>  knowledge of the subject matter).
>
>I agree with this. But I would say that unless a person can do both,
>they can't be described as a good teacher - one or the other may allow
>them to be adequate.

Which is why the role of "Teacher" can be split into the two 
aspects/job-functions of Lecturer and Instructor and someone can 
serve in the role of the former without needing to perform the latter 
and still be regarded as a good or extraordinary Teacher. Why does 
someone who is expert at passing on Knowledge to students need to go 
one-on-one with the students to get considered a Good Teacher when 
that aspect of the process can be off-loaded to some other 
Teacher/Instructor?


>
>>  Snipe seems to be good at the former - It is in the interaction with
>>  the students that he has problems.  The former is good reason for him
>>  to teach, the latter is a reason why he should be restricted to
>>  lecturing with someone-else handling the testing and clarification
>>  aspects (ie: The so called Lab section). Potions fits into this
>>  format since it is not a pure learning course but also has an "Apply
>>  that Knowledge" aspect that would allow the off loading of the "Ask
>>  for Clarification" and "See if the Students are understanding" aspect
>>  of the Course to the Teacher/Instructor who handles the Lab.
>
>Yes, but from what we see at Hogwarts, job-sharing isn't an option - so
>to be an effective teacher there, one needs to be able to do both.

Job-Sharing is not the Norm - Which does not exclude it as an option. 
There have been cases such as Care of Animals and now Future Telling 
(I forget the D-Word) where the classes were being taught by 
different Teachers/Instructors (admittedly not at the same time) so 
why not Job/Role-Sharing in the future?

>
>  > Part of the teachers behavior is dependent on what subject they are
>>  teaching. A PE (Phys Ed/Gym) teacher (or Army Drill
>>  Instructor/Sergeant) would be within their "Job Spec" to make fun of
>>  an out-of-shape student as a way of motivating them to get into shape.
>
>True to an extent - but irrelevant as Snape is not a physical education
>teacher. I can see no educative value to the comment (I've made it clear
>on previous occasions that I can see a potential educative value to
>other incidents).

I never said he was. I was responding to the Black&White description 
that said that a good teacher never belittled/insulted a student. I 
was just giving cases where this type of behavior was acceptable.

>
>>  Why not just look at it that Neville needed support and confidence
>>  building that Snipe was unable/unwilling to give and it was only when
>>  Snipe's presence was removed (at the OWLS) that Neville could perform
>>  at an acceptable level. IOW: Snipe's treatment of Neville was CAUSING
>>  the failures not Neville's inherent inability to learn or perform. As
>>  I've said above (and in prior messages) there is a difference between
>>  Teaching (Lecturing) and Instructing (interacting with the Students).
>>  Neville needed a good Instructor but was given a Teacher who was
>>  unable/unwilling to function as an Instructor.
>
>The thing is, as you say, Neville was apparently able to perform
>acceptably when tested by someone else. This does suggest that he has
>learned something in five years of Snape's classes - and he's learned it
>effectively. That's why I'm not sure what I think of Snape's treatment
>of Neville - it seems to me it may have served a real purpose.

While we agree that Snape seems to have adequately (pending the 
revelation of their OWL scores) taught Harry and Neville (in terms of 
passing onto them the requisite knowledge) this only reflects on his 
proficiency as a Lecturer - It does not mean that their OWL results 
were the outcome of his interpersonal teaching style. Since we can 
not compare Harry and Neville's actual OWL performance with what 
their performance would have been if Snape were in the room during 
the OWL practicals, we can only rely on Harry's testimony that 
Snape's absence was a direct cause of Harry's impression that he did 
good/great. Given that there are no other times when Harry tried to 
create a Potion while not in class, we have no other data-point to 
rely upon to test the apparent effect of Snape's Presence on Harry 
and Neville's ability to correctly create Potions.


--

Bob Rosenberg