Deaths in OotP

[kiricat2001]

No: HPFGUIDX 70338

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" 
<ivanova at i...> wrote:
>
> THE DEATHS OF HARRY POTTER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX
> 
> REGULUS BLACK - This is one death of which I am suspicious. Here's 
the quote
> from Sirius himself, "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on 
Voldemort's
> orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to 
be killed
> by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got 
in so
> far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to 
back
> out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. 
It's a
> lifetime of service or death." (OotP p. 112 U.S. edition)
> 
> First of all, this is a second-hand account. As with Wilkes, Sirius 
didn't
> see the death, didn't cause the death, and never saw the body. 
Unlike
> Wilkes, though, we don't even know Sirius's source for the 
information. Who
> told Sirius? If Voldemort didn't kill Regulus, who did? What 
happened to his
> body? Was it returned to his parents? Could Regulus be the third 
Death
> Eater? Although, if he was, it would contradict Sirius's story of 
Regulus
> wanting out of the Death Eaters, since it sounds like Voldemort's 
third
> Death Eater was faithful. Is there more to the Regulus story than 
we (and
> Sirius) have been told?
> 
> I say there are too many unanswered questions surrounding this 
death, and
> speculate that we might not have seen the last of Regulus Black. 
Or, if we
> have, we will find out more about how he died and who killed him 
(could it
> have been Snape?).

The death of Regulus seems to be one of those deliberately vague 
things that just screams for additional information.  My pet theory, 
with absolutely no canon to back me up, is that Snape was told by 
Vmort to kill Regulus.  In OoP we learn that Snape has been teaching 
for 14 years.  Regulus died 15 years ago.  Harry was born 15 years 
ago.  Sirius was sent to Azkaban 14 years ago.  Sirius was clearly a 
free man at the time of his brother's murder.  Snape was somewhere in 
his journey from the side of Darkness to the side of Light. 

 My thought is that, at that point, Snape had been having increasing 
doubts about Voldemort and whatever he's doing for the DEs.  He gets 
the order to kill someone.  What I would like to think is that the 
order was stated as some sort of variation of "Kill Black."  If, as 
we suspect, the DEs may not all have known each other by name, Snape 
may have believed that the order referred to killing his old 
schoolboy nemesis.  He obeys Vmort by AKing a bound, blindfolded 
black-haired man, and only afterwards does Snape realize he's killed 
someone who he had no dealings with, no quarrel with, but, he had 
been told to do murder and he did it.  And found he couldn't live 
with himself afterwards. It is this cold-blooded act that finally 
drives him away from the DEs.
 
>
> MR. AND MRS. BLACK - We don't know anything about their deaths 
aside from
> Mrs. Black dying after Sirius had been sent to Azkaban, but it 
seems to be
> common knowledge. Most telling piece of evidence that they are no 
more is
> that Sirius, the son they blasted from the tapestry, has complete 
control of
> the house, and Sirius says he inherited it after they died. I'm not
> expecting to see them again.

And I can only hope that Mrs. Black is enjoying the afterlife in 
someplace uncommonly warm...
 

> SIRIUS BLACK- Thinking about this death is what prompted me to 
start this
> whole project. There are tons of witnesses, so we don't have a 
second-hand
> report. We watched it happen. However, we do not have a body. The 
body
> disappeared. So, is he dead?

<snip of the death scene>

Bellatrix's triumphant scream:
>This is indicative of a woman who knows she has vanquished her foe.

Or who has just found a great pair of shoes at a fabulous sale price.

> She does not expect him to come charging back through the veil. She 
is not
> preparing herself for a renewed threat from that corner, but 
considers it
> over. We can take this to mean either she believes Sirius to be 
dead or at
> least out of the rest of the fight.

Does this mean that Bellatrix also understands that the veil means 
(apparently) the boundary between the living world and the afterworld?

  
> Dumbledore was a witness to Sirius falling through the veil, and he 
says
> that Sirius is dead. Dumbledore understands that chamber far better 
than any
> of us do.

But, Dumbledore has been know to shade the truth or to keep at least 
some information back. 

 There is no reason for Dumbledore to lie at this point, and
> watching him with Harry, it seems he would do anything to be able to
> mitigate some of Harry's pain. If there was any chance that Sirius 
could
> still be alive, Dumbledore would have told him so.

I agree that Dumbledore would have told Harry if there was a chance 
that Sirius was alive, but I think that Dumbledore's talk to Harry in 
his office afterwards was not well done.  It added to Harry's pain, 
because some of what Dumbledore said, in Harry's interpretation, 
implicated Sirius in his own death. And, yes, Sirius' actions did 
play a part in his death. But, Harry was not at all ready to receive 
that message.  Not right at that point. I don't think DD did any 
favors to Harry in the way he spoke about Sirius.

> One last piece of evidence that points to Sirius being truly dead. 
His
> creator, J. K. Rowling, says he is. She is very adamant about it. 

It does strike me as sort of odd that she felt she had to emphasize 
that point in interviews.  Is is because she realized that the death 
was written in a vague enough way that she thought she needed to clue 
us in?  My feeling is that the veil, and what's behind it will be 
important in the last two books.  JKR, for whatever reason, had to 
have Sirius be the one who was sent through the veil. Not Tonks or 
Lupin or Moody.  It had to be Sirius. And he had to die as a result 
of going through the veil; she couldn't simply have Bellatrix AK him. 
(Which, had she done so, certainly would end all discussion and 
speculation about whether or not he is really dead.)

> Sirius Black is truly dead. It is time we all admitted it and 
carried on.

Much as I hate it, I will admit it. And I believe we will not see 
Ghost!Sirius.  I do think, though, that we have not heard the last of 
Sirius.  I think his presence will still play a part. 

Marianne