[HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in OotP

[Kelly Grosskreutz]

No: HPFGUIDX 70373

I (Kelly) snipped some of what I wrote:
> > REGULUS BLACK
> > I say there are too many unanswered questions surrounding this
> death, and
> > speculate that we might not have seen the last of Regulus Black.
> Or, if we
> > have, we will find out more about how he died and who killed him
> (could it
> > have been Snape?).
>
Marianne:
> The death of Regulus seems to be one of those deliberately vague
> things that just screams for additional information.  My pet theory,
> with absolutely no canon to back me up, is that Snape was told by
> Vmort to kill Regulus.  In OoP we learn that Snape has been teaching
> for 14 years.  Regulus died 15 years ago.  Harry was born 15 years
> ago.  Sirius was sent to Azkaban 14 years ago.  Sirius was clearly a
> free man at the time of his brother's murder.  Snape was somewhere in
> his journey from the side of Darkness to the side of Light.
>
> My thought is that, at that point, Snape had been having increasing
> doubts about Voldemort and whatever he's doing for the DEs.  He gets
> the order to kill someone.  What I would like to think is that the
> order was stated as some sort of variation of "Kill Black."  If, as
> we suspect, the DEs may not all have known each other by name, Snape
> may have believed that the order referred to killing his old
> schoolboy nemesis.  He obeys Vmort by AKing a bound, blindfolded
> black-haired man, and only afterwards does Snape realize he's killed
> someone who he had no dealings with, no quarrel with, but, he had
> been told to do murder and he did it.  And found he couldn't live
> with himself afterwards. It is this cold-blooded act that finally
> drives him away from the DEs.
>
Marianne, it was your post on this the other day that also made me wonder if
Snape killed Regulus, and if this had anything to do with his defection to
the side of light.  That's why I added that question in parentheses.  This
is all assuming that Regulus is indeed dead.

> > SIRIUS BLACK-
> <snip of the death scene>
>
> Bellatrix's triumphant scream:
> >This is indicative of a woman who knows she has vanquished her foe.
>
> Or who has just found a great pair of shoes at a fabulous sale price.
>
I was writing this in context of what we were reading.  Somehow, seconds
after fighting a duel with another wizard, I don't think she has shoes or
sales on her mind.  Although the thought of Bellatrix Lestrange squealing in
joy over a ridiculously low sales price on a pair of shoes brings a smile to
my face.

> > She does not expect him to come charging back through the veil. She
> is not
> > preparing herself for a renewed threat from that corner, but
> considers it
> > over. We can take this to mean either she believes Sirius to be
> dead or at
> > least out of the rest of the fight.
>
> Does this mean that Bellatrix also understands that the veil means
> (apparently) the boundary between the living world and the afterworld?
>
My belief is that any of the adults who had any knowledge of the different
facets of the Department of Mysteries knew that this particular room was
called the Death Chamber.  One of her compatriots, Rookwood, used to work
for this Department.  She seems to be a favored DE, so might have been
allowed to be present when Rookwood told Voldemort about his job (I'm
guessing this conversation would have been years ago).  Yes, I think she
knew what this chamber was, and what the veil represented.  And therefore,
she knew what it meant when Sirius disappeared behind the veil.

>
> > Dumbledore was a witness to Sirius falling through the veil, and he
> says
> > that Sirius is dead. Dumbledore understands that chamber far better
> than any
> > of us do.
>
> But, Dumbledore has been know to shade the truth or to keep at least
> some information back.
>
Yes, he has, but in this case, I didn't see any reason for him to do so.  At
most, he probably knows more about the veil itself and its link with the
afterlife than we do.  That's an example of what I mean when I say
Dumbledore knows that chamber better than us.  But I don't think there's any
shading or hidden information when it comes to saying that Sirius died.

> There is no reason for Dumbledore to lie at this point, and
> > watching him with Harry, it seems he would do anything to be able to
> > mitigate some of Harry's pain. If there was any chance that Sirius
> could
> > still be alive, Dumbledore would have told him so.
>
> I agree that Dumbledore would have told Harry if there was a chance
> that Sirius was alive, but I think that Dumbledore's talk to Harry in
> his office afterwards was not well done.  It added to Harry's pain,
> because some of what Dumbledore said, in Harry's interpretation,
> implicated Sirius in his own death. And, yes, Sirius' actions did
> play a part in his death. But, Harry was not at all ready to receive
> that message.  Not right at that point. I don't think DD did any
> favors to Harry in the way he spoke about Sirius.
>
I think this is all open to interpretation.  I think Dumbledore was trying
to mitigate Harry's pain by taking the majority of the blame on himself.
Harry starts to blame himself, but Dumbledore stops him from doing that by
taking that upon himself.  Harry starts interpreting it as Dumbledore saying
that Sirius was to blame for his own death as well.  Too lazy to take a look
at this scene, but I thought that Dumbledore even tried to explain what he
meant by those comments Harry took offense to.  Harry also tries to transfer
his anger onto Snape, and Dumbledore tries to counter that by telling him
what Snape did after he left Umbridge's office.  I believe that Dumbledore
had some success dulling the edge of Harry's self-blame, and I didn't really
get the impression at the end of the discussion that Harry was blaming
Sirius all that much, but Dumbledore failed big time in trying to stop Harry
from hating Snape over what happened in Umbridge's office.

In short, I think that Harry, Dumbledore, and Snape do all get a portion of
the blame (not Sirius as much), but that's all for another post.  And what
Harry is blaming Snape for is not the thing that Snape did wrong.

> > One last piece of evidence that points to Sirius being truly dead.
> His
> > creator, J. K. Rowling, says he is. She is very adamant about it.
>
> It does strike me as sort of odd that she felt she had to emphasize
> that point in interviews.  Is is because she realized that the death
> was written in a vague enough way that she thought she needed to clue
> us in?  My feeling is that the veil, and what's behind it will be
> important in the last two books.  JKR, for whatever reason, had to
> have Sirius be the one who was sent through the veil. Not Tonks or
> Lupin or Moody.  It had to be Sirius. And he had to die as a result
> of going through the veil; she couldn't simply have Bellatrix AK him.
> (Which, had she done so, certainly would end all discussion and
> speculation about whether or not he is really dead.)
>
At least we'd have a body if she had AK'ed him.  But I don't know if I'd've
been happy with Sirius falling to an AK, either.

> > Sirius Black is truly dead. It is time we all admitted it and
> carried on.
>
> Much as I hate it, I will admit it. And I believe we will not see
> Ghost!Sirius.  I do think, though, that we have not heard the last of
> Sirius.  I think his presence will still play a part.
>
Nope, no ghostly Sirius.

Kelly Grosskreutz
http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova