Why to Like and Not Like OoP plus 2+ Books per Hogwarts Year

[m.steinberger]

No: HPFGUIDX 70813


> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sabrina" 
> <honeycakehorse03 at h...> wrote:
> > The Formerly Admiring Skeptic replying here:
> 
> > 
> > >1. The characters' personalities and >relationships are 
> refreshingly
> > realistic. >Until now, perhaps this was true, >however, in OoP, the
> > personalities and >relationships are not realistic at all.
> > 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> > This is were I have a problem. I think that until now the 
> characterisations
> > and relationships between the characters aren't realistic (not to 
> say that I
> > think they are in OoP).
> 
> <snip valid points about unrealistic relationships in HP1-4>
> 
> TAS: The main thing that made the personalities and relationships 
> more realistic in HP1-4 is that the characters were younger. Kids 
> have very thin relationships. They like people or hate people for 
> very simplistic reasons and in simplistic ways. They fight, make up, 
> break up again, and get back together as if hardly anything had 
> happened. Two years later, they've forgotten the incident or laugh 
> about it. Kids' reactions to events in their lives are simplistic, 
> too. They certainly suffer emotional pain, but it is usually an 
> unvariagated sort of feeling that leaves little to explore.
> 
> That is why the characterizations in HP1-4 were satisfying enough: 
> because it was likely that there was not much more to say, anyway. 
> Take Ron's and Harry's obtuseness about Hermione's being a girl in 
> GoF - that's typical, realistic, 14-yr-old obtuseness. However, these 
> one-note or basic chord personalities are no longer satisfying now 
> that the kids are older and the adults are being viewed through 
> Harry's older eyes.
> 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> > This is where I have another problem: you make it sound as if 
> everybody
> > would react to the same situations in the same way. Some people in 
> the real
> > world act one way in a certain situation and everybody has to react 
> the same
> > way. And this is IMO just not true. And can you really and honestly 
> say that
> > you know how you would react to the situations everybody in the 
> book is
> > confronted with? I know, I don't.
> > 
> 
> TAS: Of course people don't all act the same. But there are ways of 
> behaving that are not realistic of anyone. That's why psychologists 
> can evaluate people - because many behaviors are normal, but many 
> others are not. And that's why readers can complain that a character 
> seems artificial - because s/he is not behaving in any of the many 
> normal ways.
> 
> 
> > >            Ron's whole issue, in OoP, is >becoming recognized as 
> a person
> > with >merits of his own. Before he gets >recognition, he's got 
> plenty of
> > normal >self-doubt, but afterwards, he accepts >his new status as a 
> natural
> > thing, with >none of the intensified self-doubt, >testing the 
> bounds of the
> > new >reputation, and strained relationships >that normally 
> accompany teenage
> > (and >adult) changes in status. No realism >here.
> > 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> > I absolutely agree with you here, however, I think we have to take 
> into
> > account that it's from Harry's PoV (yeah, I know that's a lame 
> accuse, but
> > it is a fact) and no matter how much we want to know about the 
> emotions of
> > others, as long as Harry doesn't recognise them or think about 
> them, we
> > don't get to know about it. And somehow, I can't picture Harry and 
> Ron
> > having a heart-to-heart about Ron's insecurities, although he 
> probably still
> > has them.
> > 
> 
> TAS: All that is true, but it does not contribute to any realism in 
> Ron's character, the lack of which was my only point.
> 
> > >            Hermione is Miss Perfect, as >Rita Skeeter teases. 
> Realism?
> > 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> > Has she ever really been different? Her charactersation isn't only
> > unrealistic in OoP, but also in the other books. Yes, she 
> definitely is too
> > perfect and I'm just waiting for the second shoe to drop.
> 
> TAS: Sure she was less perfect in HP1-4. Then, she was bossy, she was 
> rude, she was often wrong about Harry's feelings (GoF), she had 
> temper tantrums (PoA, GoF), she was too proud to make up with Ron 
> (PoA) (not that he deserved it). Now she deals reasonably affectively 
> with Fred and George, she seems to be a competent prefect in general, 
> she coaches Harry about Cho, she sets up the DA, she sets up Rita's 
> article, she saves the group from Umbridge at the end, she's right 
> about Harry's vision being false, she's patient and supportive of 
> everyone... What does she do wrong? I can't find a single thing!
> 
> 
> > Dumbledore suddenly makes such an error in judgement
> > and never questions his decisions during the year, seems 
> unrealistic. The
> > only thing I could bring to the defence of his characterisation is, 
> again,
> > that we don't see a lot of him and therefore don't know if he has 
> problems
> > deciding what to do. Still, it certainly is an aprubt change of 
> character
> > for him.
> 
> TAS: That might defend Dumbledore, but it doesn't defend JKR who did 
> not clue us in to anything of the sort. My only explanation (not 
> defense) is that Dumbledore would have been more forgivable if JKR 
> hadn't constrained herself to year-long plots. Everything about OoP 
> would have been more acceptable if the plot had taken only four 
> months. Harry's temestuousness, Dumbledore's distance, Sirius's 
> conflicted life and so on would have been much more realistic if they 
> had all started moving on from these bad positions by November. I 
> wouldn't insist that they become angels by December 1st, just that 
> there be some progress or at least movement toward some other 
> emotional and relationship position.
> 
> Voldemort's desire for the prophecy would have been better, too, if 
> he had made a move after about four months, and not waited till June. 
> This dragging things out is very unrealistic for an Evil Overlord. 
> While I'm at it, GoF would have been more sensible at four or five 
> months, too. Why should a tournement take a year? And why should 
> Voldemort have waited so long to get Harry? Altogether, I think HP4GU 
> should petition JKR to rewrite GoF and PoA as one year, and give us 
> at least six more books for Years 5,6,&7 which have climaxes and 
> resolutions at more reasonable intervals than just once a year in 
> June.
> 
> This leads right in to your other comment: 
> 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> > There's also no realism in the fact that the big showdown is always 
> at the
> > end of the book. And I know that that is no excuse but I still had 
> to point
> > out that that's another point that has been happening since book 1.
> > 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> >I actually
> > liked Harry's characterisation because IMO it was about time that 
> he stopped
> > being a goody-goody (unfortunately nothing to do with realism or 
> anything
> > like that and purely based on my feelings). I liked the way JKR 
> expanded the
> > WW over the boundaries of Hogwarts (MoM and St Mungo's). What 
> already
> > started with the QWC in book 4 is taken further even here and as 
> I'm very
> > interested in the way the WW works, this was very interesting for 
> me, even
> > though there were some inconsistencies.
> 
> TAS: These are all excellent reasons to like the book.
>  
> > >So why did these fans like the other >HPs?
> > >
> > >1. Harry's character was not very >realistic before, but it was 
> more
> > >consistent than now, and more pleasant, >to boot.
> > 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> > Agree with the first point, as I stated above. However, the more 
> pleasant
> > part is something that has always irked me and most of the time got 
> more on
> > my nerves than he teenager-ness now. But that's only my very biased 
> opinion
> > and I know many people don't agree with that.
> > 
> 
> TAS: This is certainly a matter of opinion, and if you'll forgive me, 
> I just wonder what effect a fondness for brattiness in literary 
> characters has in real life.
> 
> > >4. HP1-4 did not have such intense >suffering and could be very 
> funny
> > >instead.
> > 
> > Me(Sabrina):
> > Actually, I think I was laughing more during OoP than any of the 
> other
> > books. But maybe that's just my weird sense of humour.
> 
> TAS: It makes me very nervous to know how many people have such a 
> sense of humor. From your post, you seem like a nice enough person, 
> so perhaps you can reassure me that this kind of humor doesn't dull 
> people's empathy.
> 
> > >P.S. I have a pet theory of why JKR >wrote OoP in so mediocre a 
> fashion
> > which would exonerate her of almost everything but wishful thinking 
> about
> > human nature. But that is for another time.
> > 
> > And I would just love to read that!
> > 
> > Sabrina
> 
> I've had a few requests, and I'll try to write it up soon.
> 
> The Admiring Skeptic
> 
>