The student reaction to the tooth incident

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 70884

Syd: 
> 
> Still not getting the saftey angle, sorry.  You guys can argue till
> you're blue in the face, but the "failed to get medical attention 
for
> an injured student" thing I'm just not buying.  McGonnegal (who is 
my ideal), would have said something like, "Pull yourself together, 
Miss Granger.  Go see Madame Pomfrey!"  Snape said "I see no 
difference", partly the way you would slap someone being hysterical, 
and partly because he's a jackass; and in another two seconds would 
have followed it up with, "Well, hospital wing, you idiot girl!"  

She didn't become hysterical until after he'd said it, until after 
she realized he wasn't going to help AND was going to pile on the 
insults besides. 

And considering how "calm" she was when she ran off, I'd say the 
mission on Snape's part was unsuccessful.

The fact remains, he didn't lift a finger to help her, nor did he 
show the slightest hint of caring whether her teeth grew to the floor.

But hey, you've as much as said you won't be convinced, so what's the 
point? 

> > So, where shall I turn to for help with this cultural divide? How 
> > about to the kids themselves?
> 
> By all means, lets go by the judgement of 13-year-olds!  Free candy
> for Gryffindors!  Unless -- *pauses suddenly, a thought striking*--
> this is then internet after all... you're not ACTUALLY thirteen, are
> you Darrin?  In which case I can be a lot more sympathetic to your
> "It's not fair!  Somebody's daddy should do something!  Death to 
mean teachers!" angle.  *anxiously scans post for inappropriate 
language*.  

No, I'm not 13, which should please you, because I would hate to 
think of your self-esteem issues if you found you had to resort to 
sarcasm and insults to handle a debate with a 13-year-old.

Now, if we're done with the mandatory belitting comment that comes 
with your posts, let us move on, shall we?

Considering that a crux of the "Eh, it wasn't so bad" argument seems 
to be that Hermione got over it, I think it is very valid to examine 
the reactions of the other students, to see how shocked or not 
shocked they are. From there, we can get an idea of what they expect 
out of their teachers.

Or perhaps I should be more sympathetic to the "Every student for 
himself! Teachers, vent your spleens on who you will!" attitude?

> > But when have we ever seen Harry and Ron, or other students, snap 
and yell at Snape like this? 
> 
> Well, there's the time he took over Lupin's class: "It was a mark of
> how much the class loathed Snape that they were all glaring at him,
> because every one of them had called Hermionie a know-it-all at 
least once, and Ron, who told Hermionie she was a know-it-all at 
least twice a week, said loudly, "You asked a question and she knows 
the answer! Why ask if you don't want to be told!"

Ah, thank you for strengthening my case. Snape behaves in a matter no 
other teacher would and a student calls him on it. Of course, Ron 
found himself with a detention for his trouble.

It is close, but not quite the case. Harry and Ron clearly take off 
on Snape after the tooth incident in a manner not seen before. 
Screaming, cursing, insulting.

>  
> > But Harry and Ron's reactions indicate sheer and total outrage, 
which  I submit comes at least partially from shock that Snape would 
stoop  even this low.
> 
> > Harry "pictures horrific things happening to Snape" and actually 
> > dreams of doing the Cruciatus curse. He dreams of breaking a 
potion over Snape's head.
> > 
> > Again, I ask, when have we seen these kids react like this before 
to  > Snape's taunts, or unjust point-taking? 
> > 
> > After three years of Snape, one would think they would be used to 
> > things like this, if it were part and parcel of their experiences 
> > with him.
> 
> I think it is precisely because it's part and parcel of their
> experiences, that they are so angry.  If this was out of character 
for him, they would be more shocked than angry.  But they start 
yelling right away.  If Rowling wanted to say they were shocked, she 
would have... said they were shocked.  Maybe it's just me, but that 
sort of seething rage is something I get when I'm thinking "isn't 
that JUST LIKE HIM..."

But again, there is the reactions of the Slytherins to this incident, 
which you have snipped from my original post. They are whispering, 
clearly figuring their snickers about Hermione's predicament should 
be kept quiet. 

They expect Snape to stop the situation. Fun time is over. A teacher 
is here. They don't expect him to join the band.

> And I think the Cruciatus curse thing is supposed to indicate to us
> that Harry's going a little over the top here.

Or that Snape has crossed a line he's never crossed before and no 
student would ever expect a teacher to cross. 


> This thread started, I believe, by your contention that Hermionie 
must have been told the Snape-Trust-Thing because otherwise she would
> have... what?  Told her parents, who would have, uh... filed a 
lawsuit in muggle court?  Taken her out of school? 

We're talking about a girl who has shown an ability to outsmart 
adults and concoct devious plans. No, I don't believe there would 
have been anything as mundane as a Muggle court, but a complaint 
would have been filed, which as you said, Dumbledore might have 
ignored.

Which leaves Hermione to her own devices, which, as we've seen with 
Lupin, Rita Skeeter, Umbridge, the Polyjuice Potion, are 
considerable. 

I said it was possible Hermione received a visit from Dumbledore, 
explaining matters a bit, and that is why she has not only let it go, 
but continues to defend Snape on no firmer ground than "Dumbledore 
trusts him."

Dumbledore trusted Moody as well, and he trusted Lupin, who failed to 
reveal all he knew about Sirius, and he thought James, Sirius and 
Pettigrew were just ordinary students. Dumbledore can be fooled, 
which Hermione well knows, yet she still has taken his word? No, it 
doesn't fit.

And we're talking about a student whose thoroughness is so profound 
that she double-checks Lupin's condition on lunar charts, re-checks 
Rita Skeeter on the Animagus registry -- a registry with only seven 
names that Hermione, who clearly has a great memory for what she 
reads, has read before -- before proceeding with her attempted 
capture of Rita.

It adds up to Hermione knowing something she's not telling the boys, 
which there is also a precedent for.

It could very well be she has done research on her own. Or, she's 
been let into the know by D-Dore.

>The only time we see parental involvement over teacher negligence 
was the Buckbeak incident, where Lucius Malfoy is on the actual board 
and is an unusually malicious person, and even he couldn't get Hagrid 
fired (despite the fact that, nice as Hagrid is, this is DEFINITELY an
> actual student endangerment situation).  All the following year 
Hagrid has the blast-ended skrewts directly and seriously threatening 
the children with physical damage, and nobody thinks of doing anything
> about that.

Malfoy is off the board, but with influence, by the time of the 
Buckbeak incident.

Actually, in the real, U.S. world of courts, the Malfoys would likely 
file, and receive a settlement from the school. The school's liabiity 
insurance company would take one look at the case and say, "It's not 
worth fighting, even though you have clear evidence the student 
disregarded the teacher's explicit safety precaution instructions."

It would be unconscionable for any school board to waste taxpayer 
money defending it. So long as the Malfoys asked for an amount less 
than the insurance company estimated it would cost to defend, they 
would get a settlement.

And the Malfoys' laywer would most likely say, "Your kid ignored two 
clear instructions on what to do in front of 15 other witnesses. Take 
the money and don't go to court."

Since you are so interested in making sure the purity of these 
debates are not clouded by the anonymity of the Internet, I'm an 
journalist covering education issues for a daily newspaper and have 
seen such lawsuits and results of lawsuits.

The parallel I've always used with Draco and the Buckbeak incident is 
industrial arts class. Hagrid clearly told the students not to put 
their hands near the power saw blade and Draco, ignoring him, did so. 

But didn't Hagrid rush Draco to the hospital wing, carrying Draco 
himself? Perhaps the comparison to Snape lies there?  


> JKR shows us what she thinks of beaurocratic, infantilizing 
>officials that write up reports on teachers and treat children like 
hothouse flowers.  I think Umbridge would just thrive on your 
lawsuits and schoolboards and post-traumatic stress councelling 
reaction to the tooth incident.  One five second event with no harm 
done, and  it would give her yet another whip-hand to hold over her 
staff, preserve Hermionie in her proper place as a trembling ninny 
who needs an adult to help her with every crisis, and generally make 
hay for controlling beaurocrats everywhere. 

No other teacher behaves the way Snape does, so it is a fallacy to 
say that this brave new world of yours exists as a statement against 
modern education bureaucracy.

But I also believe a teacher's freedom to run his or her classroom 
does not extend to ignoring and/or insulting injuries suffered by 
innocent bystanders in fights. And any teacher who feels it does 
could stand a bit of oversight.

And the point of the theory is that Hermione would have dealt with 
the situation in her own way, and Dumbledore, clearly realizing this 
was not necessarily a good thing, pacified her with information. 

Hermione clearly can handle what Snape throws at her. I'm saying she 
shouldn't have to and I sincerely doubt Snape has such character-
building exercises in mind when he does it.

Darrin