The student reaction to the tooth incident

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 70935

Darrin:
> The fact remains, he [Snape]didn't lift a finger to help her, nor 
> did he show the slightest hint of caring whether her teeth grew to 
> the floor.

Darrin, let me explain something to you. 

In words of one syllable: Snape. Is. A. Git.

No, he didn't rush to help Hermione, and instead insulted her. 
That's because gits don't do that sort of thing. Even if they *are* 
teachers. Further, in Britain, teachers get fired because they are 
unable to teach, not because they are sadistic gits. In 
fact, 'sadistic git' is an unofficially-recognised teaching style 
[grin].

[Personally, I've always found it more intriguing that Snape, 
without an audience, does rush to put the injured kids on stretchers 
and take them straight to the hospital wing (PoA)- but that's 
another discussion]

<Snip>
Snape behaves in a matter no 
> other teacher would and a student calls him on it. Of course, Ron 
> found himself with a detention for his trouble.

Err, lets rephrase this, Darrin. Snape behaves in a manner that no 
other teacher *at Hogwarts* would. Except for Umbridge, of course, 
who tortures students and leaves permanent physical scars. And 
possibly Lockhart, who is happy to leave a student to die when he's 
told information that might save her. Oh, and Quirrel, who tries to 
curse a student off his broom. Did I leave out Lupin? He's a nice 
guy. Apart from his delaying nearly a term and a half to teach Harry 
how to handle the Dementors who keep attacking him, and then 
agreeing to have himself chained to a student on the night of a full 
moon. 

Hagrid, of course, routinely injures his students (but doesn't use 
sarcasm, so that's OK). McGonagall is another 'fair' teacher; she 
takes as many points off the kids for being out of bed late in PS/SS 
as she gives them in OOP for revealing Voldemort to the world. And 
she also gives them a nearly fatal detention in the Forbidden 
Forest, which is supposed to be too dangerous for students to enter. 
Dumbledore, that example of goodness, thinks it's OK (in CoS) to 
have students basilisked nearly to death rather than sending them 
home. 

And you complain because Snape is *sarcastic* to his students and 
delays 10 seconds in sending a child to the hospital wing? [grin]. 

Or do you mean that Snape behaves in a way that no RL teacher would? 
Because most large (and many small) British senior schools have at 
least one Snape (Mine certainly did). And if their students get good 
exam results, they are tolerated. In Britain, you see, sarcasm is a 
regular occurrence. If your response to it is to burst into tears, 
then you are going to be heavily handicapped in adult life. Best to 
learn how to deal with sarcastic comments in school.

> It is close, but not quite the case. Harry and Ron clearly take 
> off on Snape after the tooth incident in a manner not seen before. 
> Screaming, cursing, insulting.

And they get a detention for it. Life's unfair, ain't it? Or would 
you prefer that life's unfairness should come as a total shock to an 
18 year old? 

By your system children will have been carefully educated to believe 
that their peers may be violent, bigoted and unfair, but those in 
positions of authority are all fair, reasonable, listen to your 
point of view and are attentive to the psychological needs of others.

To which, I have one word. Fudge.

[I could also think of a few RL examples, but this is a public forum 
and I might get sued ;-) ]

Syd:
> > This thread started, I believe, by your contention that Hermione 
> must have been told the Snape-Trust-Thing because otherwise she 
> > would have... what?  Told her parents, who would have, uh... 
> filed a lawsuit in muggle court?  Taken her out of school? 
> 
Darrin:
> We're talking about a girl who has shown an ability to outsmart 
> adults and concoct devious plans. No, I don't believe there would 
> have been anything as mundane as a Muggle court, but a complaint 
> would have been filed, which as you said, Dumbledore might have 
> ignored.
> 
> Which leaves Hermione to her own devices, which, as we've seen 
> with Lupin, Rita Skeeter, Umbridge, the Polyjuice Potion, are 
> considerable. 

I doubt it, Darrin. A complaint *would* have been completely 
ignored. In fact, Hermione's parents might well have ignored it as 
well. 'Yes, dear, he's a git. Some people are like that.'

Look at Hagrid's reaction in GoF, when Harry repeats Snape's line 
about 'Potter has been crossing lines ever since he first arrived at 
this school'. Does he leap to the roof in horror? Nope. Hagrid's 
reaction is a mild 'Said that, did he?'. Meanwhile, Ron and Hermione 
laugh. [GoF, Ch. 22, p. 341 UK edition.]

Snape's a git, kids. Learn to laugh at him. Dumbledore is far more 
likely to have sat Hermione down and explained that some people are 
just like that, than to have given her personal details about 
Snape's life and times.

Oh, and then he would have explained that planning deadly revenge 
for sarcastic comments in front of a few schoolkids is a little out-
of-order. Skeeter published deliberate lies in a national newspaper. 
Snape made an off-the-cuff comment in front of a few kids. Is it 
really the same level of insult?

> 
> I said it was possible Hermione received a visit from Dumbledore, 
> explaining matters a bit, and that is why she has not only let it 
> go, but continues to defend Snape on no firmer ground 
> than "Dumbledore trusts him."
> 
> Dumbledore trusted Moody as well, and he trusted Lupin, who  
> failed to reveal all he knew about Sirius, and he thought James, 
> Sirius and Pettigrew were just ordinary students. Dumbledore can 
> be fooled,which Hermione well knows, yet she still has taken his 
> word? No, it doesn't fit.

<Snip>
 
> It adds up to Hermione knowing something she's not telling the    
> boys, which there is also a precedent for.
> 
> It could very well be she has done research on her own. Or, she's 
> been let into the know by D-Dore. 

Or possibly Hermione is just using her formidable intelligence. 
Dumbledore trusts Snape. So far, Snape has attempted a counter-curse 
on someone trying to kill Harry; has bounced into a room containing 
both a werewolf about to transform and someone he thought was an 
escaped mass murderer in order to protect kids he doesn't like; has 
revealed his criminal DE past to Fudge ( who hauls people off to 
Azkaban on suspicion alone ) in an attempt to convince Fudge that 
Voldemort is back.

Dumbledore found out he was being fooled by people's *actions* (like 
Fake!Moody kidnapping Harry). Snape's *actions*, when people's lives 
are *really* being threatened, all justify Dumbledore's trust. 

Perhaps Hermione is smart enough to recognise the difference between 
being a git, and being an evil git. ;-)


<Snip>
> 
> Actually, in the real, U.S. world of courts, ...<Snip explanation 
of how the Malfoy's complaint would have proceeded in the U.S.> 

> Since you are so interested in making sure the purity of these 
> debates are not clouded by the anonymity of the Internet, I'm an 
> journalist covering education issues for a daily newspaper and 
> have seen such lawsuits and results of lawsuits.

In the United States, Darrin. Having spent time in both countries, I 
can assure you that Britain and the U.S. are *not* the same country 
and do *not* necessarily see the same things as desirable or 
important. The legal system is most certainly not the same; I've 
seen U.S. attourney's make comments about people accused of a crime 
that would have them disbarred here. Conversely, Americans would 
probably be open mouthed in shock at the power of a U.K. judge to 
stop the press making any comments at all about an upcoming trial. 

Arguing about the unreal world of the Potterverse by the real world 
of the U.S. courts/education is fraught with danger; JKR is not from 
the U.S., has never lived in the U.S., and is most unlikely to have 
based any of her world on the U.S. legal system, or the standards 
prevailing in the U.S. teaching profession. 

<Snip>
> But didn't Hagrid rush Draco to the hospital wing, carrying Draco 
> himself? Perhaps the comparison to Snape lies there?  

Again, I would point out that when faced with real, genuine injury 
(Ron's injury in PoA) Snape also puts everyone on stretchers and 
gets them to the hospital wing. Also, unlike Hagrid, Snape rarely 
seems surprised or unprepared when people get injured in his Potions 
classes. He's got a dangerous subject, he knows that, he usually 
seems to have the appropriate antidote on hand. Or recognises that 
this is more than he can deal with, and the student should go to the 
hospital wing. 

Hagrid didn't seem to have any first aid equipment ready in a class 
dealing with potentially dangerous creatures. So who exactly *does* 
come out better in the Snape/Hagrid comparison?

Hagrid is kind. Snape is a git. But whose class is the more 
dangerous? Who generally shows the best judgement when dealing with 
student injuries? Students are scared of Snape's classes because of 
his unfairness and his vicious tongue. Hagrid's classes routinely 
get students cut, burned, gored ...

So if Snape was relaxed enough about Hermione's fight injuries to 
make a sarcastic comment about them, do you think she was suffering 
the equivalent of possible concussion? Or the equivalent of a black 
eye?

> 
> Syd:
> > JKR shows us what she thinks of beaurocratic, infantilizing 
> >officials that write up reports on teachers and treat children 
> like hothouse flowers.  I think Umbridge would just thrive on your 
> lawsuits and schoolboards and post-traumatic stress councelling 
> reaction to the tooth incident.  One five second event with no 
> harm done, and  it would give her yet another whip-hand to hold 
> over her staff, preserve Hermionie in her proper place as a 
> trembling ninny who needs an adult to help her with every crisis, 
> and generally make hay for controlling beaurocrats everywhere. 
> 
Darrin:
> No other teacher behaves the way Snape does, so it is a fallacy to 
> say that this brave new world of yours exists as a statement 
> against modern education bureaucracy.

See above. Teachers like Snape exist in RL, there are teachers more 
dangerous than Snape in Hogwarts. 

Further, this is also a novel, which have slightly different rules 
than the rules in real life. I would not expect a novelist to hand 
me two characters who behave exactly the same. Even Fred and George 
display subtle differences. 

*None* of the teachers in Hogwarts behave the way any other teacher 
does. Flitwick is kindly, McGonagall strict-but-mostly-fair, 
Trelawney dippy, Lupin wants his students to like him, Madame Hooch 
is matter-of-fact, Hagrid is learning the job as he goes along ...

To say in a fictional, created world that 'no other teacher behaves 
the way Snape does' is a fallacy. Fictional characters (especially 
fairly major ones) are supposed to be distinct.

[And has anyone spotted a student at Hogwarts who has the same name 
as another student? Ever considered how unlikely that is, in a 
school of several hundred kids? ;-) ]

> 
> But I also believe a teacher's freedom to run his or her classroom 
> does not extend to ignoring and/or insulting injuries suffered by 
> innocent bystanders in fights. And any teacher who feels it does 
> could stand a bit of oversight.
> 

Well, there we go back to 'Snape is a git'. And the question of: are 
we talking the equivalent of possible concussion, or a black eye or 
a skinned knee? In one you hurry the kid off to the nurse as fast as 
possible, in the other you know it's safe to delay a minute or so. 

Incidentally, Darrin, could you explain to me how Snape *knows* that 
Hermione is an innocent bystander? He arrived after the event and 
has a group of kids all insisting that each of them attacked the 
other. We're talking Miss 'steal Potions ingredients, plan to let 
off fireworks in class and attack a teacher' Granger here. *Harry 
and Co.* know that they're the attacked party. Snape has no way of 
knowing that. 

> And the point of the theory is that Hermione would have dealt with 
> the situation in her own way, and Dumbledore, clearly realizing 
> this was not necessarily a good thing, pacified her with 
> information. 

I would not think that the situation was remotely serious enough to 
justify Dumbledore releasing confidential information about a 
teacher to a student. Snape insulted a student; this isn't quite in 
the same category as an out-of-his-mind Lupin having a psychotic 
werewolf episode in the school grounds.


> Hermione clearly can handle what Snape throws at her. I'm saying 
> she shouldn't have to and I sincerely doubt Snape has such 
> character-building exercises in mind when he does it.

And there we disagree. Hermione does have to learn to handle what 
Snape throws at her. Do you think the pureblood wizards are always 
going to blatantly shout 'mudblood' at her? Or are the Malfoys and 
their ilk just going to make comments about her 'bushy' hair, her 
big teeth? 'their kind don't set much store by punctuality'. [that's 
the Dursley's about wizards, but it's the same kind of indirect 
insult that all bigots produce].

I repeat, if Hermione's reaction to sarcasm and insults is to burst 
into tears, she is going to be *seriously* handicapped in adult 
life. 

As for doubting that Snape has character-building in mind - have you 
not considered yet that Snape's childhood nickname was 'Snivellus'? 
Exactly how far did crying get *him* in the sympathy stakes? 
Additional insults, that's what it seemed to get him. 

It's possible there may be some character-building 'I had to learn 
to deal with this stuff and you are darn well going to learn to deal 
with it as well' in his mind.

Or maybe Snape is a git. ;-)

Pip!Squeak