The Tooth Affair WAS Re: The student reaction to the tooth incident

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 70994


> > Darrin:
> > > The fact remains, he [Snape]didn't lift a finger to help her, 
> > > nor did he show the slightest hint of caring whether her teeth 
> > > grew to the floor.
> > 

Pip!Squeak:
> > Darrin, let me explain something to you. 
> > 
> > In words of one syllable: Snape. Is. A. Git.
> 
Darrin:
> Just so we know. This is not an admirable characteristic. I think  
> it gets confused at times.

Pip!Squeak:
No, I agree with you there. It's not an admirable characteristic. It 
is, however, a *realistic* characteristic. There are real Snapes. 
And that seems to be getting lost in this idea that Snape is the 
worst thing to ever hit the corridors of Hogwarts. 

Unless he turns out to be the Evil-est Dark Lord, and has spent the 
last 20 years or so running Voldemort as his front man, that is 
*not* likely to be the case. 

> 
> > Pip!Squeak:
> > Err, lets rephrase this, Darrin. Snape behaves in a manner that 
> > no other teacher *at Hogwarts* would. Except for Umbridge, of 
> > course, who tortures students and leaves permanent physical 
> > scars. And possibly Lockhart, who is happy to leave a student to 
> > die when he's told information that might save her. Oh, and  
> > Quirrel, who tries to curse a student off his broom. Did I leave 
> > out Lupin? He's a nice guy. Apart from his delaying nearly a 
> > term and a half to teach Harry how to handle the Dementors who 
> > keep attacking him, and then agreeing to have himself chained to 
> > a student on the night of a full moon. 
> 
Darrin:
> And what do all four of these teachers have in common?
> 
> They... are... no... longer...at...Hogwarts. 

Pip!Squeak:
One torturer, one attempted murderer by gross negligence (with 
Memory Charm as assault by deadly weapon), one thief/attempted 
murderer, and one endangering students by gross negligence (ie 
forgetting a potion which prevents psychotic episodes). 

Versus: a nasty comment in the corridor. Oh, and a failure to 
instantly send a student to the hospital wing.

How do sarcastic comments and not hospitalising a kid with the 
equivalent of a nose bleed (see below) even *begin* to compare with 
Umbridge, Lockhart, Quirrel and Lupin?

Nope, sorry. Snape's got some catching up to do. As a picture of a 
nasty teacher, who makes everyday lessons a misery, he's brilliant. 
But when it comes to achieving a 'Hogwart's firable event', he's a 
failure. 

And actually, none of the above got fired, as you pointed out. Left 
voluntarily (with a little encouragement from centaurs), medical 
retirement, died, voluntary retirement (with a little encouragement 
from Snape). 

So really, Snape needs to find Harry, torture him, remove his 
memory, steal, say, his invisibility cloak, and then eat him for 
lunch (with a nice Chianti). That will probably get him fired.

On second thoughts, it might only get him a stern reprimand. ;-) 

<Snip>
 
Pip!Squeak:
> > Hagrid, of course, routinely injures his students (but doesn't 
> > use sarcasm, so that's OK). 
> 
Darrin:
> Do you see a student having to go to the hospital on his or her 
> own in his class? Or not receiving first aid in his class?

Pip!Squeak:
"Together they managed to restrain and tie up nine of the Screwts, 
though at the cost of numerous burns and cuts;" GoF Ch.21, p.322 UK 
edition.

"Harry noticed her eyes travel over Dean (who had a nasty cut across 
one cheek), Lavender (whose robes were badly singed), Seamus (who 
was nursing several burnt fingers), and then to the cabin windows, 
where most of the class stood, their noses pressed against the 
glass, waiting to see if the coast was clear." GoF Ch.21, p.323 UK 
edition.

<Snip>

> 
Pip!Squeak:
> > And you complain because Snape is *sarcastic* to his students 
> > and delays 10 seconds in sending a child to the hospital wing? 
[grin]. 

> Darrin:
> There is no evidence that he would have sent her. It is purely 
> speculation that he would have gotten around to it. He certainly  
> showed no inclination to.

Pip!Squeak:
It is equal speculation that he would not. You have no evidence that 
he would not have sent Hermione along if she hadn't rushed off. 
None. In fact, you are ignoring considerable canon that Snape *does* 
apply first aid where needed, and *does* send students to the 
hospital wing where needed. PS/SS, CoS, PoA, OOP - in all these 
Snape is seen applying first aid, or taking kids to the hospital 
wing, or protecting students from harm, *irrespective* of whether 
they are Gryffindors, Slytherins, or the Trio.

For example, in OOP Snape prevents Umbridge from force-feeding Harry 
Veritaserum, and stops Crabbe strangling Neville. He appears to 
dislike both of these children intensely, but goes to some trouble 
to protect them. OOP Ch.32 p. 656 - 657 UK edition.


<Snip>
 
Darrin:
> Sarcasm is one thing, something I've repeatedly said, so long as 
> he uses it as a teaching tool, is fine. But we're talking about a 
> physical injury, suffered by a student, through no fault of her 
> own.
> 

Pip!Squeak: 
Uh, so physical injuries are terrible when Snape doesn't instantly 
deal with them, but fine for Hagrid to ignore?

Presumably the burns, cuts etc. suffered by the class in the GoF 
quote above are too minor to bother about? Or are you going to admit 
that if ignoring physical injury, suffered by students through no 
fault of their own is the 'fire him' criteria, *both* Hagrid and 
Snape should be packing their bags?


Pip!Squeak:
> > Incidentally, Darrin, could you explain to me how Snape *knows*  
> > that Hermione is an innocent bystander? He arrived after the 
> > event and has a group of kids all insisting that each of them 
> > attacked the other. We're talking Miss 'steal Potions  
> > ingredients, plan to let off fireworks in class and attack a 
> > teacher' Granger here. *Harry and Co.* know that they're the 
> > attacked party. Snape has no way of knowing that. 
> 
> Darrin:
> Good point. Snape didn't bother to try and find out did he? And no 
> Slytherin received a detention for the act. But, we should just 
> laugh at double-standard bearing gits.

Pip!Squeak:
Or maybe we should consider whether insulting, stealing from, and 
attacking a teacher is *really* going to help them be fair and 
unbiased when you're standing in a corridor going 'it wasn't me, 
sir, honestly, not this time it wasn't, really sir.' [grin].

> Darrin:
> Snape also has no way of knowing Hermione did all the above, so 
> his slate should be clean with her.

Errr... Darrin. Hermione spent weeks in the hospital wing for the 
potions incident. It's entirely possible that Snape figured out that 
her stay in hospital might have had something to do with the 
ingredients missing from his store cupboard, which are used in the 
Polyjuice Potion. And I'm sure Snape has a very clear memory of 
being whacked by three Expelliarmus spells in the Shrieking Shack.

A 'clean slate' is exactly what Hermione *hasn't* got.

Even if Snape did protect the children from possible criminal 
charges by insisting that they were Confunded when they attacked him 
in the Shack [grin].
 
Darrin:
> > > Hermione clearly can handle what Snape throws at her. I'm 
> > > saying she shouldn't have to and I sincerely doubt Snape has 
> > > such character-building exercises in mind when he does it.

<Snip>
Pip!Squeak: 
> > I repeat, if Hermione's reaction to sarcasm and insults is to 
> > burst into tears, she is going to be *seriously* handicapped in 
> > adult life. 
> >
> Darrin:
> Why is it so hard to grasp that the reaction isn't to just the 
> sarcasm, but to the complete refusal of an adult authority figure 
> that she has every reason to trust to help her to do so?

Pip!Squeak:
Because the reaction is to the sarcasm. Hermione's quite capable of 
taking herself to Madame Pomfrey. Harry does that in Divination when 
he's a year younger. (PoA - except he decides not to go and get the 
Headache Potion he's just claimed he needs). She's got an injury to 
her teeth, not her feet.  Hermione gets to Madame Pomfrey under her 
own steam just fine. Oh, and Snape doesn't shout after her 'Come 
back Miss Granger. Did I give you permission to leave?'

Her eyes fill with tears as a reaction to what Snape has just said. 
The children scream as a reaction to what Snape has just *said*. 

Ron, who could be expected to have a reasonable knowledge of jinxes 
(with those brothers of his) does *not* react with an 'OMG! Madame 
Pomfrey! Now!'. Ron doesn't say 'Hermione needs to go to the 
hospital wing'; he says 'Malfoy got Hermione. Look!' [GoF p. 263, 
Ch. 18 UK edition]. Ron's first priority is not getting Hermione to 
hospital, it's getting Malfoy into trouble. Ron doesn't seem to 
think the *injury* is serious. It's what Snape *says* that everyone 
reacts to.

> Darrin:
> And he had every responsibility to do so. Just as he has when 
> other students, such as Slytherins, have been hurt.

Pip!Squeak:
But when you over-emphasise the tooth incident, you ignore the many 
cases in canon where Snape HAS performed his 'duty of care' to non-
Slytherins.

> Darrin:
> But I guess she does need to learn that some people would rather 
> indulge their petty hates than do their job as well.  

Pip!Squeak:
You think that this is not a valuable lesson? Snape is a nasty, 
sadistic teacher who abuses his power. That's a quote from JKR 
(which can be found at http://www.the-leaky-
cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html ). 

When Hermione grows up she may find nasty, sadistic bosses who abuse 
their power. Because they exist.

And should I mention Hagrid again? Who would rather indulge his own 
interests than teach his students stuff that is actually on the 
syllabus?

The subjects on the COMC exam are mostly creatures they've studied 
with Professor Grubbly-Plank. Unicorns, which she introduced. 
Bowtruckles, which she introduced. Knarls, which Hagrid wanted to 
ignore in favour of Thestrals (which didn't come up, though they 
proved very useful in getting Sirius killed).

Darrin:
> I just have 
> a hard time believing Snape is deep enough to really be 
> consciously teaching her a lesson and not just getting his jollies.

Pip!Squeak:
Umm... Snape is an ex-spy, an expert in occlumency, acts a part 
perfectly in front of Umbridge. That he can say one thing and be 
thinking about another is now officially canon. 

I have no problem in believing that Snape is deep enough to be 
fooling Voldemort. And quite possibly Dumbledore. Which would make 
him quite deep enough to be fooling the kids he teaches.

Frankly, I think you can't trust a darn thing Snape says or does in 
front of an audience, and we'll only know what his real motives are 
by the end of Book Seven. If then. 

... think of the person who lives in disguise
who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies.

That's the definition of spy from the Sphinx's riddle in GoF.

And from the interview quoted above: 'there is more to him than 
meets the eye ' (JK Rowling in 1999; she repeated practically the 
same comments in the recent Albert Hall webcast).

So Snape might be on the good side, he might be on the bad side, he 
might be on his very own personal side. But what he *isn't* going to 
be on is the 'perfectly straightforward and easy to figure out' side.

So 'deep' sounds fine to me. ;-)

Pip!Squeak