Flight to London - Speed Questioned

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 71941

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Random <random832 at r...> wrote:
> 
> On Saturday, Jul 19, 2003, at 21:51 America/Indianapolis, Steve wrote:
> 
> > bboy_mn:
> >
> > I'm sure I mentioned windchill and wind turbulence. .... Wind 
> > turbulence at 500mph would rip your head off. ...

> Random replies:
> 
> Well, why can't _that_ be the magic bit? It's going 500mph _for 
> real_  but maintains a bubble of static air around it.
> 

bboy_mn:
First, as someone has already pointed out, the book specifically
mentions windchill and wind turbulence, and not just wind over the
windshield turbulence. Harry and everyone else had to lay low against
the body of the Thestrals to avoid the slipstream (another word for
air turbulence). If there was anything blocking them from the wind, it
was the Thestral's head and neck, and at 500mph, that wouldn't be enough.

Second, if you are going to insist on real-time flight then it would
seem logical to insist on real-time flight physics. There is a reason
why no propeller driven plane ever exceeded the speed of sound. No
matter how streamlined the body or how powerful the engines, the
propellers themselves created enough of an aerodynamic barrier to
prevent the plane achieving those speeds. So a static bubble would
screw up the aerodynamic; it would create such a large wind resistant
barrier that it would prevent near sound speeds.

Next, as long as we are on the topic of aerodynamics, the only way the
Thestrals would be able to fly is if its wings were outside the static
bubble. No airflow means no lift, with no thrust or lift, the Thestral
couldn't fly. Now you could say that it is a magic bubble, but if you
are going to use magic, how is your magic any better than mine?

And while we are on magic, I personally don't see an organic magical
creature producing a static bubble. However, I could see a wizard
casting a 'bubble' spell to create that effect, but we don't see any
wizard cast it in the book. 


> > bboy_mn originally said"
> >
> > (snip more)
> >
> > So, the only logical way to get there in a resonable amount of
> > time under those conditions, is magic. I simply outlined a likely
> >  means by which that particular magic would manifest itself.

> Random continues:
> 
> Ever heard of Occam's Razor? The simplest explanation is best... 
>

bboy_mn now replies:
Yes, I've heard of Occam's Razor, and I thought magic was a very
simple explaination. Your bubble is just magic, but I don't see a
massively strong functionally aerodynamic bubble being any simpler
than my idea in a world where we have see a variety of magic travel,
and hints that creatures can move through space at non-real speed; in
other word, we've seen hints of magical flight. 

Think how long it would take an Owl (Hedwig) to fly to the location
where Sirius was able to find exotic tropical birds. I think in the
book, it's like a week out and a week back. So unless Sirius is hiding
in a zoo somewhere, we are talking about some unnaturally fast flying
on Hedwig's part. The only places I can think of where there would be
an abundance of available tropical birds is Asia and Central Africa,
but that's just a guess. 

For Reference:
London to North Congo = 4,000 miles
London to North India = 4,100 miles
London to North Thailand = 5,600 miles


> > bboy_mn org:
> 
> > ... apparate 500 miles in 2 seconds, ... ground speed 900,000 mph. 
> > Talk about wind chill.
> 
> Teleportation is rather different than actually dragging your body 
> around physically. The thestral is actually physically moving.
> 

bboy_mn:
Well, you have a good point here, so I will (marginally) concede on
this one. Apparation is a somewhat unique method of travel relative to
standard physics. And we have never seen Harry travel by Apparation so
we have no narrative regarding how it feels.


> >bboy_mn Originally said:
> > 
> > ... you Floo 140 miles from Ottery St. Catchpole .. to London in 2
> > minutes? 4,200 mph!

> 
> And your voice goes down the phone wire much faster than the speed 
> of sound, ...

bboy_mn:
You forgot what it's like to travel by Floo powder. There is a
sensation of physically moving through space, and a sense of real-time
experience to the 'Flooer' (Flooer - one who Floos). You see yourself
moving through the Floo Network, you see fireplaces wizzing by, you
have some sense of moving through physical time and space, even if the
exact time and space are warped by magic. In addition, there is a
deafening 'roaring' sound and the sensation of cold ... slapping your
face. I can't say for sure if that is wind turbulence and wind chill,
but I suspect it's related.

Also, there is obviously no barrier or bubble surrounding you as you
Floo because Harry makes physical contact with things as he moves
throught the Floo Network; that's why you need to keep your elbows
tucked in.


bboy_mn Org said:
> 
> > Otter St Catchpole's Stoad Hill to Quidditch World Cup in Scotland
> > (500 miles... 5 minutes by portkey? 6,000 mph.
> >

> Random replies:
> 
> Teleportation, again.
> 

bboy_mn:
No not teleportation again because you experience the sensation of
physically moving through time and space. Again, the sense of time and
space are not proportional to the distance traveled, but you do still
sense time and movement throught space. Floo and Portkey transport
you, the don't Teleport you.

'...suddenly jerked forward...', '...his feet left the ground...',
'...their shoulders were banging into each other...', '...speeding
forward in a howl of wind and swirling of color...', '...then his feet
slammed into the ground...'


bboy_mn org:
> > ... The human body could never withstand it, so the only possible 
> >solution is magic.

> Random reply:
> 
> or the _body_ isn't transported in that way.
> 

bboy_mn:
Of course, I can't say that I am absolutely right, but I think the
evidence leans in my direction. In all cases except Apparation, which
we don't have enough information about, the forms of travel we have
seen all involve a physical awareness of moving through time and space
with sensory/tactile sensations appropriate for movenent. As I say
below in my closing statement, I'm not telling absolutely what IS, I
am suggesting a likely explaination. You 'static bubble' idea based on
my analysis is possible, but I personally don't think it is likely. 

> > bboy_mn org:
> >
> > Again, I simply describe a likely manifestation of that magic.

> Random reply:
> 
> For the Thestral's case, where the body is not transmitted or 
> teleported but actually physically transported, it makes more sense 
> to just have a "bubble" of static air around the immediate area of 
> the thestral.
> 
> --Random832

bboy_mn now:
I can't and won't say that you don't have a valid point. Your solution
does involve magic in the form of a protective barrier combined with
normal real-time physical movement through space. That seems to be a
very easy combination. Whereas my idea, magical flight, merges
physical flight and magic in a way that sort of blurs the lines
between them; it creates kind of a grey magic. But I think there is
enough evidence to support my theory as a likely way for Thestrals to
cover that distance in that time functionally.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn