HRH and their Prefect badges-Pretty long

[serenadust]

No: HPFGUIDX 72211

 
I wrote:
> > I don't think you can compare the DA, in which F&G are highly 
> > motivated to learn from Harry, to his being able to inhibit 
their 
> > testing and development activities.  Harry is very concerned 
about 
> > what the twins think of him (see GoF where he's worried that 
they 
> > would think that he was "losing his nerve" if he asks their dad 
> > about his scar hurting).  Harry is not any more motivated to 
rein 
> > them in than Ron is, and I don't think he'd have tried too hard, 
> > either.


Greatelderone replied:
> You are still forgetting about the part where he gave them the 
money 
> for the joke shop which has changed his relationship with the 
twins.

Me:
Nope, I haven't forgotten.  That fact just gives more support to my 
belief that Harry would not have had any motivation to stop Fred & 
George from testing their products.  If you can find any canon to 
support the notion that he would do this (or that he actually 
*could* stop them when even Hermione couldn't), please point me to 
it.

Greatelderone:
> Still the DA was also a voluntary thing by both parties(the 
student 
> body and Harry) and the fact that Harry doesn't have any authority 
> from the school to have the DA or to keep the students under 
control 
> and still manage to get a handle on George and Fred says a lot for 
> his power over the twins.

Me:
Sure they respect his ability to teach them DADA.  How does this 
translate into "power over the twins" with respect to stopping them 
from achieving a goal he supports?

I wrote: 
> > But I don't believe it was a mistake. Harry would have been an 
> > absolute disaster as a prefect during his 5th year.  He did not 
> have 
> > the respect of a large portion of the student body already, 

Greatelderone: 
> And Malfoy and Ron did? 

Me:
Actually yes.  I'm certainly no friend of Draco Malfoy but the fact 
remains that he seems to have loads of influence over the 
Slytherns.  What evidence do you have that Ron isn't respected in 
Gryffindor or anywhere else (apart from Slythern)?

Greatelderone:
Furthermore the fact that a large cross 
> section of the school actually came and attended the DA proves 
that 
> he certainly did have their respect.

Me:
Sadly, the canon suggests that most of Hogwarts has serious doubts 
about Harry's credibility when he returns for his fifth year.  The 
DA group was hand-picked by Hermione and Ron.

I wrote: 
<snip> 
> >and his 
> > selection would have undermined his position even further by 
> playing 
> > into the perception that Dumbledore tends to unfairly favor him 
in 
> > all cases. 

Greatelderone:
> What about Malfoy? He was the worst possible choice for prefect 
and 
> abused the position and only received the badge because he was 
Lucius 
> Malfoy's kid.

Me:
Where's the canon to support that Malfoy was the worst possible 
choice in his own house and that he only received the badge because 
his dad is Lucius Malfoy? Are you perhaps suggesting Crabbe or Goyle 
should have been chosen instead of Draco? (Dear God, now you've got 
me defending 
that bloody Malfoy kid!  Heidi, are you seeing this?  I want full 
credit <vbg>.)


Greatelderone:

> By your reasoning he should have just taken politics into the 
school 
> and appeased the ministry which imo isn't like him since he was 
the 
> fellow that went and announced to the whole school and public that 
> Cedric Diggory was dead even though Fudge and the ministry didn't 
> believe him and it would have been easier for both him and Harry 
to 
> cover up the truth and to rebuilt the order behind the ministry's 
> back and without their suspicions. 

Me:
Not at all. By your reasoning, Harry getting to be prefect is 
important enough to risk Dumbledore's further inflaming the ministry 
when he's already on thin ice. I think that Dumbledore has some 
other priorities which carry a bit more weight.  Besides, he really 
doesn't think that Harry should be burdened with the added 
responsibility, and I think he was right.

I wrote:
> > It was a mistake for Dumbledore not to have told him about the 
> > prophecy sooner than he did, but I don't believe that denying 
him 
> > the prefectship was a mistake (see above).

Greatelderone: 
> Again we don't exactly know how the prefect system works. Perhaps 
the 
> prefects have to be re-selected each year and the ones that have 
> proven themselves capable are held on and others that have proven 
to 
> be not so capable are shuffled out of the position while new ones 
are 
> selected for the job.

Me:
Unfortunately for this theory, there's no canon to support anything 
like this system, and no one who has attended a school with a 
prefect system has suggested that it's done this way anywhere.

<snip>
I wrote:
> > You mean like he handled the responsibility for learning 
> Occlumancy, 
> > which everyone from Hermione, to Sirius, to Dumbledore himself 
> > stressed that he needed to master? He certainly didn't handle 
that 
> > responsibility too well, did he?


Greatelderone:
> True it was his fault, but at the same time Dumbledore also 
admitted 
> that it was also partially his mistake for not realizing that 
Snape 
> would never get over the memories of the abuse that he received at 
> the hands of Sirius and James.

Me:
Still, Snape would have continued teaching him if he had ever 
bothered to ask, or to have actually apologised for using the 
pensive to witness Snapes humiliation at James' hands.  Harry bears 
the responsibility for not having done the most critical thing that 
Sirius, Lupin, and Dumbledore asked of him, and Sirius paid for the 
mistake with his life.  Poor Harry has to live with that knowledge 
now.

Greatelderone: 
> Ron however hasn't managed to fight off the dementors like what 
Harry 
> did in POA nor has he survived encounters with Voldemort or the 
> Basilisk which Dumbledore even said "grown wizards have never 
faced".

Me:
Neither has Hermione.  I guess we'll have to lift her badge, too. 

Greatelderone:
The fact that Harry reminds people of the 7th yr James also 
> reinforces the idea of his maturity.

Me:
I recall many people saying that Harry reminds them of James, but I 
can't think of one instance where anyone specifically says he 
reminds them of James in his 7th year.  Can you direct me to the 
book and page # where it says this?

I wrote:
> >The GoF rift is *one* spat over the space of 
> > four years, and long overdue, at that.  

Greatelderone: 
> And the fact that the issues that caused the spat are still there 
> says that this argument is going to come up again.

Me:
Er....fact?  Actually, I think that OoP makes it perfectly clear 
that the issues that caused the spat are entirely resolved and that 
that particular argument *won't* come up again.
 

Greatelderone:
> But has Ron gotten over those same issues? He still wants the 
fame, 
> money and authority that Harry and his brothers have. The fact 
that 
> he doesn't have authority which should have come along with the 
badge 
> while Harry who doesn't have the badge and is ridiculed by the 
> prophet has them and the fact that Harry is probably going to get 
> unbanned by Dumbledore next year just might cause a re-emergence 
of 
> the jealousy.

Me:
I think that OoP shows us that Ron has begun to make his own way at 
Hogwarts and has done some real maturing by the end.  The notion 
that Ron is obsessed with fame, money, and authority simply because 
he has expressed a wish not to be poor, and because his 11 year-old 
self saw himself as Head boy and Quidditch captain in the mirror, 
has been blown WAY out of proportion by people who are looking for 
reasons to discredit his character.  None of these things are 
unreasonable or immoral for a boy to desire.  He has no reason to 
have any jealousy toward Harry at this point. I don't believe that 
OoP Ron would trade places with Harry for a minute.

Jo Serenadust