OoP: Amanda goes on and on about Snape, was Snape/Lily

[litchick_1]

No: HPFGUIDX 61875

A response to Amanda and Tamara's continuing thoughts on Snape...

Since I've already lent back OotP, I can't reread this to be sure, 
but I do think that anger from the pensieve incident stems from 
Harry's carelessness... what if he saw important info about the 
Order?  Horrible DE stuff?  That is at least a major factor in 
Snape's anger, and knowing how he likes to displace emotions is 
probably why he flung the jar and threw Harry around.  I am on board 
with the non-obliviating idea-- were I Snape, I'd WANT Harry to 
remember that too.  He's getting to be a big boy.  Your idols can 
(and sometimes should) get knocked off their pedestals so you can 
continue to mature and see the increasingly wide spectrum of gray 
between black and white.  Perhaps this is why Harry only uses 
*crucio* on Bellatrix instead of going straight for *AK*.  He wants 
to kill, but even in the heat of passion can only attempt to cause 
pain... not death. 

Litchick, who notes that she can't ever remember Snape insulting 
Harry's mother in any way

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:
> Okay, okay, I *think* I'm the oldest listmember who espouses this 
as their
> number one favorite theory, so here's my take on this.
> 
> I think it's still a viable theory. It was by NO means proven. 
What it was,
> was *not ruled out,* which I'll take, we have two more books to go.
> 
> The key thing I focus on here is Snape's memory.
> 
> Givens:
> --he took more than one out; we have no idea what was in the others
> --Harry didn't see the ending of that one
> 
> I refuse to believe that being turned upside down in public was 
the worst
> thing that James and Sirius ever did to Snape. They didn't turn 
him into
> anything, they didn't poison him, they didn't change him. So there 
had to be
> another factor that made it so traumatic.
> 
> I think the other factor was the presence of an audience. But that 
must have
> happened before, too; honestly, the way James and Sirius went into 
action,
> the way Snape reacted, this has *got* to be a standard pattern. So 
audiences
> have been there before, too.
> 
> So what's new, different, or especially traumatizing? They're 
fifteen. We've
> seen the stirrings of, um, gender, shall we say, in Harry, Ron, and
> Hermione, and they make a point of how James was preening for the 
girls. The
> *girls.* They did this to Snape in front of the girls.
> 
> And the one girl who gets involved is Lily.  And he insults her 
fairly
> egregiously.
> 
> I submit to the jury that it *may* be the case that this is a 
terrible
> memory for him because he liked Lily, and they did this to him in 
front of
> her. And as if he wasn't humiliated enough, she jumps in to *save* 
him, how
> totally degrading is that? This girl you'd like to look good in 
front of,
> not only has she seen you in your underwear, she thinks you need 
defending.
> Oh, great.
> 
> So in your rage and humiliation, you're angry at her, too. And you 
strike
> back at her, for she's just humiliated you, too, as much as James 
and Sirius
> did, and right at this point you don't give a rat's ass about her 
intentions
> being good.
> 
> And so part of the reason this memory is so bad, may well be that 
Lily was
> there, saw, interacted.
> 
> So I think Snape/Lily is still viable. I think her presence in 
this bad
> memory is significant. Please note: I have *always* maintained 
that Snape
> and Lily do NOT have to have ever been a couple for this theory to 
work; he
> just has to have honestly loved her. Which you can do without 
being loved
> back; I think Lily would have let him down easy. No pun intended.
> 
> That's not to say that James and Sirius might have gone on to do 
more awful
> things to Snape in that memory--I hope to God they didn't take his 
underwear
> off--but Snape surely saw "where" they were in the memory when he 
went to
> get Harry, and he was surely acting as if Harry had seen more than 
enough. I
> detected no kind of hint from Snape that there was any relief that 
Harry
> hadn't seen the worst of it.
> 
> As for the rest of the book--there really wasn't a lot of 
opportunity for
> hinting about this sort of thing. I think most of the Snape stuff 
in this
> book was to sow the seeds for a future understanding between him 
and Harry.
> The seeds. It's not there yet. But they have shared memories 
(anyone else
> surprised, as I believe Snape was, that Harry broke through to 
*him*? the
> superb Occlumens? I think Snape removed memories to be extra 
careful, but I
> don't think for a minute that he expected Harry to be able to do 
that).
> 
> Harry's reaction to glimpsing Snape's childhood was strong and odd,
> considering it's Snape. "standing there with such loathing in his
> eyes"...almost as if Harry regrets that it is. For one short 
moment, Snape
> was not all the things he has come to represent over five years; 
he is
> simply a person. And Harry's reaction to Snape's pensieve memory 
is honest;
> he does not shut out the truth of it and what it means to his 
beliefs about
> his father. I was impressed by the maturity and bravery of Harry 
in this,
> and earlier, when he confronts himself honestly and is willing to 
face the
> answers. I am hoping he will be able to confront himself honestly 
about
> Sirius' death, and stop scapegoating Snape for it, but it was just 
a bit too
> soon to expect him to do it at the end of this book.
> 
> Snape's seen a *lot* of Harry's childhood. I think he knows that 
Harry's had
> a terrible time of it. Snape's got neither the personality nor the 
behavior
> patterns--or the ability, given the role he must play--to lighten 
up very
> much. But  the word "subtle" has again been associated with him. 
It was in
> his very first speech in book 1; and here he tells Harry that he 
has no
> subtlety; that subtlety is needed for what he must learn. So I 
look for
> subtle things from Snape. And I saw one.
> 
> When Harry is picking himself up after yet another failure, and 
Snape asks
> what the last memory is, and Harry asks if it is the one of his 
cousin
> trying to make him stand in the toilet, Snape says "No," softly. 
That's it.
> That's all you get. This is not Remus Lupin, and Snape hates James 
still,
> and I still think Lily is a complicating factor, and so about all 
Snape will
> do is this. Softly. Not menacing; not dismissively; not angrily; 
not low;
> not sneering. Softly. Because he knows, for he is hiding some of 
his own
> memories in the pensieve, how he would hate having his childhood 
indignities
> seen, and Harry has not once complained about this. I think he 
respects
> Harry for this, for what he has gone through and how he is 
handling himself
> with Snape in his head. Softly.
> 
> I also am frankly amazed that Harry gets out of Snape's office 
uninjured,
> after Snape catches him in the pensieve. I am amazed Harry gets out
> un-Obliviated. Seriously. If I were Snape, knowing how close Harry 
is to Ron
> and Hermione, I would have made *damned* sure nobody else would 
hear about
> that. And Snape didn't. He let him go. Snape hates Harry for doing 
what he
> did, seeing what he saw--but he also let him go with that 
knowledge.
> 
> Maybe, once the damage was done, Snape wants Harry to remember 
what a shit
> his father was. Point is, a certain amount of respect must have 
built up for
> Snape to let Harry retain the memory. Snape is certainly a 
powerful enough
> wizard to remove it. He was certainly angry enough not to give a 
damn if it
> were a bad idea or not. But I think that there is respect there, 
albeit
> grudging, and trust, albeit only based on Harry's own loyalty to 
Dumbledore
> and what he's been through with Voldemort. Enough to let him go 
unhurt and
> unmodified.
> 
> So, as I said, there are seeds for understanding there. But it 
remains to be
> seen if Harry will be able to get past his blaming Snape for 
Sirius' death.
> And I doubt Snape will do diddly to make it any easier for him.
> 
> Snape is, I say it again, one of Harry's father figures and Harry 
is in full
> adolescent rebellion. The different aspects of fatherhood have 
been "spread"
> over several men for Harry, and Snape is all the negatives. Snape 
is the one
> who won't listen, the one who knows better, the one who doesn't 
understand,
> the disciplinarian. The one you absolutely *hate* and can't wait 
to get away
> from. The one you only come to value when your perspective has 
matured.
> 
> And because Harry has matured, JKR has blurred the black/white of 
Snape for
> him. The father figure who doesn't understand, is himself not 
understood
> very well by Harry, and Harry comes to see this. This cold man was 
a small
> unhappy boy, was a bullied child. And JKR has also made certain 
that Snape
> understands some things about Harry as well, and Harry knows it; 
he knows
> Snape saw his memories.
> 
> I think in the next two books, that IF Harry can accept Sirius' 
death and
> that he had a role in it, the development of the Snape-Harry 
interaction
> should be interesting. I found the scenes in Snape's office, 
especially the
> first one, where they were talking, to be very engaging. Because 
their
> conversation was more than sniping at each other. They were 
conversing. This
> is a new thing. I hope it develops.
> 
> One more short bit about the worst memory. Someone asked over on 
Chatter,
> where were the gang of kids who almost all turned out to be Death 
Eaters?
> Why wasn't anyone helping Snape? My thought: it may be that it was 
occasions
> like this, treatment like James and Sirius were handing him, that 
made Snape
> start running with those others. Maybe this memory was bad, also 
because it
> was the point at which Snape, unable to fight back any other way, 
turned a
> corner in a Dark direction to gain safety and revenge.
> 
> Okay, I've run down now. Have at it.
> 
> ~Amanda