[HPforGrownups] OoP - Snape the racist; Snape the victim; Snape Snape Snape

[Kelly Grosskreutz]

No: HPFGUIDX 62261

Darrin wrote:

> There has been a question of whether these are Snape's views of the
> events or the events themselves, which allows Harry to hear
> conversations the younger Snape had no way of hearing.
>
> I don't know when the Shrieking Shack prank took place, but if it
> took place after the Worst Memory Prank, then you have to go with the
> latter.
>
> Lupin and the others talk about him being a werewolf. If Snape heard
> that, and this was before the Shrieking Shack prank, then that
> doesn't make sense.
>
> So, I submit that this is Snape's subconscious, and not his memory
> shading his views.
>

I just reread the scene in CoS where Harry goes into Riddle's memory.  To
me, it reminds me very much of how a Pensieve works.  He raised the diary up
to his eye to see into the little window better.  When he actually touched
it, he fell into it. He then spent time in Dippet's office.  He was there
for a few minutes before Riddle showed up.  Now, if this is Riddle's memory,
taken from either Riddle's conscious or subconscious thoughts, there is no
way Harry would have arrived in the Headmaster's office, but would have been
walking to the office with Riddle instead. There is no way that Harry could
have known that Dippet would be reading a letter, drawing his curtains,
watching the door and waiting.

Moving along to OOTP, we start out this memory during the O.W.L DADA exam.
Now, if this was straight from Snape's conscious or subconscious, we would
be focused entirely on Snape's essay.  He is described as sitting with his
nose practically touching the paper, constantly writing.  To me, this is the
description of a boy completely focused and intent on the thoughts he is
transmitting to paper.  His memory of this moment would be of writing the
answer to whatever question he was on.  Even if his peripheral vision did
pick out James and Sirius grinning at each other and giving each other the
thumbs up, there is no way whatsoever that Snape could have seen James
doodling L.E. all over his paper.

In short, when it comes to memory scenes, whether diary or Pensieve, I
submit that, somehow, the viewer is taken to a more objective viewing of
what actually transpired.  There is no way Snape could have known what James
was doing on his paper.  Snape didn't care what James was doing during the
exam because he was too busy writing his own.  In Dumbledore's Pensieve,
when DD stands up to defend Snape during Karkaroff's trial, Harry sees
Moody's reaction to this, something that was done behind DD's back and
therefore DD didn't actually see.  Granted, he might have had an idea what
Moody's reaction would be based on his knowledge of Alastor Moody, but he
could not have known for sure.  And another thing I would like to point out
is that Harry never actually knows what the person in question is feeling or
thinking.  He can guess how Snape felt and what he might have been thinking
as he hung upside down, but it's not like he was exposed to that torrent.

>
> Now, onto Snape and the Marauders themselves.
>
> I, too, wonder where the gang of Slytherins were. I don't buy that by
> the end of fifth year, Snape, who after all came to school knowing
> more curses than any seventh-year AND already had the "filthy
> mudblood" doctrine down pat, Snape has no Slyth friends.
>
Maybe Snape, although he could get along with the other Slytherins, always
kept himself somewhat aloof from him.  I can see himself opting to be
somewhat of a loner.  Always have.  He came into school so far ahead of them
in at least one respect and has always seemed to have little patience for
"dunderheads."  Maybe he didn't hang with them at first as much as we have
always thought, and it was only when he saw how it would benefit him to
cultivate those relationships did he start seeking out their company more.
They, of course, would have been happy to take him in, as they probably have
been trying to cultivate his friendship for years because they know he could
be a valuable ally.  Of course, this is all speculation.

> Again, my feelings now on the Shrieking Shack prank and James'
> reaction is NOT, as I originally thought, that Lily asked James to
> save Snape, but that James saved Snape and Lily started seeing James
> differently because of it.
>
I agree.  I think the Shrieking Shack incident changed James.  He saw that
his actions could have disastrous consequences.  I'm not positive this was
the all-defining thing when it came to James's turnaround, but I'm sure it
helped.

> How did Snape feel about all this?
>
> I don't want to try to match wits with the premier Snapeologist, but
> I'd like to suggest that Snape's feelings for Lily, if they existed --
> not convinced yet, Amanda -- are buried so deep that he can't begin
> to fathom them until long after she is dead.
>
> She stands up for him, and he calls her the worst epithet in the
> Wizard World, simply because of her bloodlines. I could see where
> this is an unrequited crush manifesting itself as hate, but again,
> those are very subterranean feelings. I wonder if Snape even grasped
> them, until it was too late.
>
I'm still one who has never bought the Snape loves Lily theory.  I can see
where those who support that theory could take a view that he called her
that name because he was trying to mask his real feelings for her and/or
because he was ashamed/embarrassed that she had to defend him.  Something I
would like to put forth (not sure if I completely like this one either) is
that maybe before this he never even thought about Lily or any other
"Mudbloods," seeing them only as something completely inferior, as I'm sure
he was taught at home.  Maybe this incident could be the first time he ever
sees one of them as an actual person.  From what we saw in his "sanctioned"
memories, we can guess he wasn't treated that well at home, if he was even
noticed.  She may have been kinder to him than any of his own family member.
A Mudblood showing kindness and concern where his own family couldn't even
do that?  Of course he's not going to take it well at first.

> About this "worst" memory business.
(snip)
>
> I submit that if Snape had grasped Harry would be shaken so much by
> the memory, Snape would have left it in for Harry to find. Think
> about it, as humiliating as it was for Snape to have Harry see that,
> it accomplished more than any taunt about his father's arrogance ever
> did.
>
I thought exactly the same first time I read that.  Snape went on at great
length in PoA about how arrogant James was, how he acted, etc.  Harry didn't
believe him, and the majority of the readers didn't, either.  This shows all
of us that Snape wasn't just saying that, but there was some truth to it.  I
was actually thinking about why Snape was so against Harry seeing this
particular memory, thinking that it can't have been any worse than anything
he's seen in Harry's mind.  One thing I thought about was that not only was
Snape humiliated in it, but he most likely also felt completely helpless and
also violated.  After all, James was threatening to pull down Snape's
underpants in front of the entire school.  I get the impression that he did
do just that.  Having that done while hanging upside down is enough to make
anyone feel helpless and violated.

> Are Snape and Harry heading for a reconciliation? No, not that, but
> some kind of understanding.
>
> It is, as Amanda pointed out, too soon for Harry to let go of his
> anger toward Snape. He is mourning Sirius and he is reacting, in my
> view, as he thinks Sirius would have wanted him to, with hatred
> toward Snape.
>
I think his reaction towards Snape is a coping mechanism.  I hope that's all
it is.  It is far easier to blame a man that you have never liked, a man you
know hated the man you loved as a father, than it is to accept that you
might have had some culpability in his death.  It is easier to hate than it
is to admit that you might have been wrong about him.  I think eventually he
will see reason and his feelings in this respect will change, but right now
it is just too soon.

On a side note, has anyone thought about how Snape might be feeling about
Sirius's death?  After all, here is another death he tried to prevent and
failed.  He hated him, true, but he still tried to keep him alive.  And
let's not forget that Snape's the one who threw Harry out of his office,
knowing full well why Harry was supposed to learn Occlumency in the first
place, and did not make any effort to reestablish the lessons, allowing
Harry to be perhaps influenced by V and making himself bait for the very
thing that sent Sirius to his death in the first place.  I mean, all Snape
would've had to do was, at the end of the very next Potions lesson, call
Harry to his desk and say, "Wednesday night, 7 PM.  Don't be late," and
never say anything about what had happened the previous time again.  But he
didn't, and it is in part of this that Sirius died.

> But, I believe Harry is going to feel the urge, the need, to
> apologize on behalf of his father. He might have done so already, had
> Sirius not died and he had to deal with his own guilt and the
> knowledge that he is heading down a path of death, if the prophecy is
> true.
>
I don't see this happening for a long time yet.  Has Harry even acknowledged
that it was wrong of him to look in the Pensieve when it was obvious that
Snape didn't want Harry knowing about these thoughts?   On some level, I
think he does, which is why he doesn't tell Ron and Hermione the real reason
the lessons have stopped, but he doesn't allow himself to fully realize
this.  I think only then would he be anywhere close to being able to
apologize to Snape about anything.

Kelly Grosskreutz
http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova