OOP: A few Points on Snape and other things

[koinonia02]

No: HPFGUIDX 62695

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bsartists" <bsartists at y...> 
wrote:

I personally see the scene of Harry looking in on Snape's memory as 
the first attempts to give Snape's character more dimensions.

"K"

If only we had been shown more! I was very disappointed that we 
didn't see more of Snape but sometimes I forget the books are about 
Harry Potter first ;-)

I'm going to use this thread to talk about Snape. I'm not even sure 
where to begin. Let's start with some new things we did learn about 
Snape in no particular order.

(1)  As a small boy he watched his parents shouting at each other. 
His father shouted, his mother was afraid, and Snape was in the 
corner crying. I wonder how many times that happened.
(2)  He sat alone, as a greasy-haired teenager, in a dark bedroom 
(while on a break from Hogwarts?). Shooting down flies. Sounds like a 
filthy environment. Also reminds me of Harry when he is away from 
Hogwarts, sitting in his room alone, with no friends around. 
(3)  Leaves the dark-fly-infested bedroom to attend Hogwarts where he 
is bullied.
(4)  He is unpopular at school. Is there anyone who loves this kid? 
(5)  He tries to get on a bucking broomstick while a girl laughs. Now 
just who might be making that broomstick act that way?
(6)  As a student he seems to take his school work seriously. We see 
him take an exam and he is very focused on his test.
(7)  He has a potty-mouth ;-p
(8)  Round-shouldered.
(9)  Younger than Lucius Malfoy.
(10) Snape is shorter than Sirius Black.
(11) Is considered by Black to be Lucius Malfoy's 'lap dog.
(12) Lucius Malfoy thinks highly of him.
(13) Still keeps his class in order. 
(14) Has been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years.
(15) Snape DOES want the DADA job. He applied for this job first and 
has continued to apply for it every year.
(16) His class seems fairly advanced for their level (5th year)yet... 
(17) He is on probation. 
(18) He is a superb Occlumens (wonder how Lupin knows that?)
(19) He is spying again.
(20) He is a member of the Order of the Phoenix. 

Things we didn't find out:

(1) Why Snape became a DE.
(2) Why Snape left the DE's.
(3) When did Snape leave the DE's.
(4) Why Dumbledore trusts him so much.
(5) Snape/love.
(6) Is Snape a vampire.
(7) Are his parents still living.   


Message 62295       
From:   "rane_ab" <rane_ab at h...>
 
And James
 evil!James Potter. Woohoo! I loved that. Well, not quite 
evil, but close enough.

 
AMANDA  Message 61798
I refuse to believe that being turned upside down in public was the 
worst
thing that James and Sirius ever did to Snape. They didn't turn him 
into
anything, they didn't poison him, they didn't change him. So there 
had to be
another factor that made it so traumatic. 

"K"

I think this was a very traumatic event and it probably was one of 
many. Maybe the most traumatic part of this scene is that James 
really did drop Snape's pants.

You won't find me defending James and Sirius. Total jerks. Well, 
maybe not total as I must admit I have always liked Sirius for some 
reason even though many of his actions are just horrible. Let's take 
a look at what Snape has had to endure from them.

POA
Mr.Moony presents his compliments...keep his ABNORMALLY LARGE NOSE...
Mr.Prongs agrees...that Professor Snape is an UGLY GIT.
Mr.Padfoot...an IDIOT ever became a Professor.
Mr.Wormtail...WASH HIS HAIR, the SLIMEBALL.

So sweet. Now to OoP:

"All right?, SNIVELLUS (James-loudly. Severus reacts quickly which 
leads me to believe the actions by James are nothing new. James cries 
Expelliarmus and Snape no longer has his wand. Sirius laughs. James 
knocks Snape off his feet. Students are gathering around. James and 
Sirius advance on Snape (like Malfoy and his goons)while Snape is 
panting on the ground. James is glancing at the girls. Man, what a 
way to impress them. James calls him SNIVELLY. Sirius says VISCIOUSLY 
that there will be GREAT GREASE MARKS all over the test. People 
laugh. Snape is struggling to get up. Sirius asks Snape what he is 
going to do, WIPE YOUR NOSE ON US? James causes pink bubbles to come 
from Snape's mouth, covering his lips. Snape is choking. Snape dares 
to 'exist' in James little world. Lupin does nothing. James calls him 
SNIVELLY again. James hangs Snape upside down, causing his robes to 
fall over his head and reveal his graying underwear. Gee, just what 
every 16 year old boy wants. Especially with all those onlookers. 
Sirius, James, and Wormtail are roaring with laughter. James lets 
Snape down only to put another curse on him. Lily calls 
Snape 'Snivellus' and tells him to wash his pants. (Of course Snape 
did call her a very ugly name). James hangs Snape upside down once 
again and threatens to take off SNIVELLY'S pants. 

Does it bother anyone that Snape has had to endure comments about his 
appearance from these clowns? I get a bit tired of people excusing 
the behavior of many in these books except when it comes to Snape, 
regardless of the abuse he has taken. Snape is suppose to ignore what 
is done to him as a teenager and he is suppose to ingore it as an 
adult. Just get over it.

       
"rane_ab" <rane_ab at h...>Message 62295

And, well
 Snape actually 
threw a jar at Harry's head. I couldn't believe that. As horrible as 
that action might be <snip> He attacked a student. I'm not sure of he 
*was* aiming at Harry's head, but still
 I've never seen him lose it 
like that. <snip> Except for the incident with the jar, 
I've never seen Snape try to hurt a student.

"K" 
In all his anger Snape still managed to just throw the jar over 
Harry's head. He didn't appear to aim for him at all but I do believe 
Harry got the message that Snape was a wee bit unhappy with him 
looking in the Pensieve.

     
"rane_ab" <rane_ab at h...>Message 62295
 
I read several messages from people that thought Snape *was* 
softening up. I'm not sure where they draw that conclusion from. I 
read someone saying that Snape had asked: "whose dog was that?", (or 
something like that) *softly*. I hate to disappoint you, but when 
Snape says something softly, that doesn't necessarily 
mean he's being 
nice. Quite on the contrary. Unless he's really very, very angry and 
shouts at the top of his voice, Snape speaking softly usually 
indicates he's being malicious. <snip> He lmight just as well have 
been laughing at Harry.

"K"
I believe you might be referring to the following statement:

AMANDA   Message 61798
Softly. Not menacing; not dismissively; not angrily; not low;
not sneering. Softly. Because he knows, for he is hiding some of his 
own
memories in the pensieve, how he would hate having his childhood 
indignities
seen, and Harry has not once complained about this. I think he 
respects
Harry for this, for what he has gone through and how he is handling 
himself
with Snape in his head. Softly.

"K"
I'm going to agree with Amanda on this. I don't think Snape was 
laughing at all. Snape has been known to speak softly and be menacing 
at the same time. However, it doesn't appear to be so here.  Harry 
had been reliving humiliating events. Some involved Dudley and his 
gang. Snape asks Harry about the last memory Harry had. Harry 
says, "You mean the one where my cousin tried to make me stand in the 
toilet?" "No," said Snape softly, "I mean the one concerning a man 
kneeling.....I don't detect any sarcasm here at all. Snape has been 
getting a close up view of what all Harry has gone through as a child 
and Snape understands. He knows. He has been there himself and he 
just says, no, not that one. No sarcasm, no malice, no telling Harry 
he is dense. He just speaks softly. 

"rane_ab" <rane_ab at h...>Message 62295
I agree with those that say that Snape does seem to be rather happy 
McGonagall is back. Though I note they call each other "Professor 
(name)". That was actually pretty funny. Why would two teachers call 
each other "Professor Snape" and "Professor McGonagall"? Just sounded 
odd. At first, I thought that sounded rather cold, but now that I 
think of it, it could actually sound rather fond. Not really sure, 
though. But yes, his stepping forwards did seem rather eager.

"K"
McGonagall has called Snape by his first name before. I believe Snape 
always calls her Professor. I have always felt that there is 
fondness, for lack of a better word, and respect between these two. I 
do think Snape was happy to see her. It's not as if he can give her a 
big hug with Draco and other students standing there. I just 
sincerely believe that Snape likes McGonagall. 


AMANDA  Message 61798 

Okay, okay, I *think* I'm the oldest listmember who espouses this as 
their
number one favorite theory, so here's my take on this.

I think it's still a viable theory. It was by NO means proven. What 
it was,
was *not ruled out,* which I'll take, we have two more books to go.


"K"
I'll agree here also. I saw nothing to support that theory nor did I 
see anything to rule it out. JKR left us hanging again. I was very 
surprised that we saw so very little of Lily. We also didn't see 
Florence. 

AMANDA  Message 61798 
One more short bit about the worst memory. Someone asked over on 
Chatter,
where were the gang of kids who almost all turned out to be Death 
Eaters?
Why wasn't anyone helping Snape? My thought: it may be that it was 
occasions
like this, treatment like James and Sirius were handing him, that 
made Snape
start running with those others. Maybe this memory was bad, also 
because it
was the point at which Snape, unable to fight back any other way, 
turned a
corner in a Dark direction to gain safety and revenge.

"K"
I can see that happening. Maybe Snape was just tired of being lonely 
and abused. 

When Snape is teaching Harry, he says the following, "Fools who wear 
their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their 
emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be 
provoked this easily - weak people, in other words, they stand no 
chance against his powers." Could this not describe how Snape was at 
one time? Could he not be describing himself? Harry? Neville? Many of 
the other students? Maybe when Snape was at his lowest, when he was 
drowning in sad memories, when he was constantly provoked, when he 
couldn't control his emotions, could that not have been the time he 
joined Voldemort? When he was weak? Could this not be the reason that 
Snape does his best to toughen up the students? If you are weak you 
won't be able to stand up to Voldemort. Plus I believe Snape wants to 
prevent others from taking the path he did. 

Now on to Vampire Snape. Nothing to prove it and nothing to show he 
isn't. There is that comment by Ron that Snape doesn't ever eat there 
(the house) but then I don't think Snape cares for the company. Plus 
he does eat at Hogwarts. One thing I did notice is that Snape still 
continues to be in 'the dark'. In the other books he is always 
stepping out from the dark. He does the same thing here. When Snape 
is a teenager he is in a 'dark' bedroom shooting flies. He must be 
able to see fairly well in the dark. In the Pensieve 'Snape had 
settled himself on the grass in the dense shadows of a clump of 
bushes.' He seems to head for darkness.

Other little tidbits. Snape is described as round-shouldered. No big 
deal but when I read that description it just struck me as odd. Then 
I remembered later that someone else had been described that way and 
that was Viktor Krum. Viktor and Snape are also described as sallow-
skinned, having black hair, being very skinny, and having a large 
nose. 

How about Avery? I'm curious about him and I believe he gave 
Voldemort false information. I'm too lazy to look that part up right 
now. It's just that Avery and Snape were friends and I'm interested 
to see what he is really like. 

Of course I have plenty to say about the death of Sirius (very, very 
sad even for a jerk) and who all is to blame. I'll do that another 
time but I will say Harry does have to take a bit of blame here and 
as usual Snape seems to be the whipping boy. I did not want to see 
Sirius die and I was very surprised by his death.

Other non-Snape items:   

"bsartists"
Oh and Dumbledore as only human - I like it. 

"K"
Wish I had time to discuss Dumbledore. I have always loved him and we 
saw some very touching moments from him. But Dumbledore made a very 
disturbing statement that has taken me by surprise.

How about Luna? I loved her. I loved the book even though I was 
extremely disappointed to see so little of Lupin, Snape, and 
Dumbledore. After three years I expected to see more of them.

"K" 

"...asking me how the cleaning's going---"