Discriminatory admissions process (Re: OOP: Sorting hat's song)

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 64101


> Darrin wrote in response to Tim in message #63694:
> >Assuming Snape is a Slytherin, there is one, apparently. But, the 
> >current crop of Slyths don't have anyone who is ready to jump 
> >sides... so far.
> >
> >And as I said in another post, I'd like to see what happens the 
> first 
> >time a Slyth shows up for D.A. class. I hope there aren't knee-jerk 
> >cries of "discrimination!" and "unfair!" when Harry and the rest are 
> >suspicious of that kid. 

Milz:

> Of course Harry will be suspicious of that child, because Harry has 
> been conditioned like everyone else in the UK Wizarding world 
> that "all dark wizards came were in  Slytherin". The House system 
> encouraged and perpetuated these stereotypes. In effect it 
> contributes to a "self-fulfilling prophecy". The members of Slytherin 
> are  expected to be cunning and wiley, so they are.
> 

Darrin:

But as I say continually, with the exception of Snape, who Harry doesn't tr=
ust 
(perhaps unfairly, but Snape doesn't do a lot to engender trust, with Harry=
 
either) Harry has not encountered one Slytherin who he would consider to be=
 
trustworthy enough to share the secrets of the D.A. class.

Perhaps he will, but he has a responsibility to the other students in the g=
roup, 
and yes, to the fight against V-Mort, to make sure that person is trustwort=
hy.

The group has already been betrayed by a Ravenclaw who wasn't so much a 
V-Mort sympathizer, but too scared to stand against him. (Which, in the end=
, 
makes her a V-Mort sypmathizer by default.). Considering the long history o=
f 
V-Mort sympathizers being Slytherin, Harry would be irresponsible to his 
cause to automatically welcome a Slytherin.


> 
> Equally Harry would be foolish to allow his prejudices and other pre-
> conceived ideas blind him in his decision-making. We know that 
> Malfoy's gang (Parkinson, Goyle, Crabb, and at times, Millicent 
> Bulstrode) are awful bullies with prejudices. But we don't know at 
> this time if there are any Slytherins who are loyal to Dumbledore. 

Put it this way. (friendly sarcasm coming) :) 

Do you believe all Snape had to do was show up on D-Dore's doorstep and 
say, "Headmaster, I was a D.E., but I don't want to be any longer. Let me s=
py 
for you" and D-Dore said, "Severus, that's wonderful. Here's some secrets t=
hat 
are vital and could be damaging to our cause."

(end friendly sarcasm)

Of course not. Snape had to prove himself (and I'm dying to know how.)

Whichever Slyth wants to join, and I agree that is the next logical step in=
 the 
reuniting of the houses, that kid will have to do something to convince Har=
ry.  
Now, if D-Dore went to Harry and said, "this kid is OK," that would carry a=
 lot of 
weight, but Harry and the others would still need to be convinced for 
themselves. 

I'm not sure if it's stereotypical when so many of the V-Mort sympathizers =
and 
their kids are Slyths. Even if we get one (or a few) so-called "good" Slyth=
s, 
they will still be the exception to the rule.

Again, it's all fine to discuss in ethics class, but there's a war on, and =

sometimes you have to err on the side of caution.
 

> >As for the question of Snape being the Good Slytherin. I'm not sure 
> >what the hell Snape is (part of what makes him interesting.)
> >
> >As I've said before, there are still enough signs out there that 
> >would make it possible for Snape to betray Dumbledore. For now, he 
> >seems on the right side.

Milz:
 
> Don't pass out in shock, Darrin, but I agree with you here
.ummm 
> Darrin? Darrin
wake up
.err, someone get the smelling salts please. 
> (lol) :-)
> 

Me:

Um, which part, that Snape is good, or that Snape could still be bad? Eithe=
r 
way, it's a start. ;)


Milz: 
> 
> On the contrary, I don't mind going through the all the songs line by 
> line. IIRC, around the time GoF was released, Rowling said in an 
> interview the Hat will play a significant role. I've looked at the 
> two other Hat songs(SS/PS, GoF).  The Hat gives more information 
> every time it sings. In SS/PS, it gave a nice short song, briefly 
> introducing the House system. The next time in GoF, the Hat gives 
> more detail about the Founders, their philosophies and how the Hat 
> came into being. In OoP, the Hat gives more information about the 
> Founders' philosophy and chronicles the schism.  
> 
> Furthermore, I think the Hat parallels Dumbledore's actions 
> concerning Harry. The previous two songs shields the students by 
> giving them "only enough information". In the most recent song, the 
> Hat levels with them just as Dumbledore eventually does with Harry.
 

Me:

OK, I  do agree with this. It is possible that the Hat, for the first time,=
 is "telling it 
like it is" which would make the OoP version more valuable than the others.=
 I 
still don't know about picking it apart line by line when, to engage in a b=
it of 
meta, JKR had to juggle rhyming with picking the most meaningful words.

I will say this, though. How'd you like to have been a Hufflepuff and been =
told 
for four years that you were picked because you were a hard worker, and you=
 
find out you were basically the ones picked last for dodgeball? That  would=
 
suck.

And I did like how the euphemisms "ambition and cunning" have been 
replaced by pureblood. 

<snip my racial stuff>

> Way back when HPFGU had just returned to YahooGroups from 
> Egroups.com, we discussed a minor difference between the UK edition 
> and US edition of SS/PS. Apparently, the US edition described Dean 
> Thomas as a "tall black boy". This was not included in the UK book. 
> Most of us wondered why Scholastic (or Rowling or both) beleived it 
> necessary to include that in the US edition, but not the UK book. 
> IIRC, someone wrote that Rowling, initially, didn't want to assign 
> racial characteristics to her characters, but eventually did.

I might have caught a later rehashing of that same discussion, and I have 
maintained that JKR has had countless editions to do something. And 
regardless, we are given obvious minorities such as Cho and the Patil girls=
, 
and still Slyth, so far, is white bread personified.

 
> By all accounts, Rowling abhors bigotry. Yes, no Slytherin is given a 
> racial or ethnic group designation---to date. Perhaps this is done on 
> purpose. Rowling knows her audience includes children. Why should she 
> risk assigning a racial quality to a Slytherin character knowing that 
> a young reader might internalize that and apply it in the real world? 
> I think Rowling is doing the socially responsible thing by keeping 
> her Slytherin characters "grey" and allowing the reader to form 
> his/her own vision of the ethnic/racial makeup of the Slytherin 
> students.


That is entirely plausible, but so long as we're debating her motives, I th=
ink 
putting at least one minority in the group, just to establish that we're no=
t talking 
about real-world racism here, would be better. I think, so long as Aryan Dr=
aco 
and SS Crabbe and Goyle are around, the minority kid in the background 
won't become the symbol of Slyth.

Milz: 
> 
> On the other hand,  the term "muggle-lover" is a direct correlation 
> to the "Jew-lover" epithet of  NAZI Germany. 
<snip Milz' racial stuff>


And all, with the exception of V-Mort's attempt to kill Harry, have some ki=
nd of 
racial or religious bigotry behind them.  I think I see what you're doing, =
trying 
to mitigate the link I've made to bigotry against blacks and Latinos by poi=
nting 
out other links, but regardless of form, we're still talking about everythi=
ng to do 
with the Culture of V-Mort, which has a very heavy influence on modern 
Slytherin Culture, having racist images and practices.

Couple that with the pureblood doctrine in canon and the underlying 
whitebread notion, I still believe JKR is sending us a message. The Slyth 
creed is a hateful creed. 

If the houses are truly "unitable" then at some point, Salazar (or his esse=
nce) 
needs to come back and fix what he hath wrought with his disdain for muggle=
-
borns. I have no problems believing that Riddle (and others before him, mos=
t 
likely, although not with the same success rate) have twisted his beliefs m=
uch 
the same way the Nazis twisted Nietzsche, but this is magic, and Salazar 
might still be able to do something about it.

Or... Salazar is a Genocidal Racist Madman Bastard Twisted Old Loony and 
approves...


> >My guess is that the long-awaited "good Slytherin kid" that has been 
> >discussed here is going to be the first kid to openly disagree with 
> >all that garbage and stand up to Draco's creed.
> 
> >But like I said in those countless good Slyth kid discussions, if 
> >he's not in canon, he doesn't exist. When JKR writes him, then he 
> >exists. Right now, the Slyths follow the Creed of Purelbood and I 
> >don't see where any of them have diverted from that path.... yet.
> 
> Very true, if it isn't part of the cannon, like the OoP Sorting Hat 
> song, then it doesn't exist.

Cheap shot! Dirty pool! :)

Darrin
-- If Milz and I can be friendly, then Salazar and Godric can surely make i=
t up.